Legal opinion on handgun carry in a vehicle in WA

[deen_ad]

If anyone remembers: several weeks ago I posted that I had a determination from the WA AG's on guns not needing to be on your person while in a car.

I was sorting papers today and found a copy.

<broken link removed>


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The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington member

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[Blitzkrieg]

From what I read of that a loaded, locked within the vehicle weapon is OK as long as the owner has a CPL

This is how I understood the law for years now, and this allows you to have a primary or second (etc) handgun in a bag or case, readily available for self defense

 

[mjbskwim]

Saved to my computer.
The local ex-sheriff/gunstore owner says it has to be on your person,that's what he was taught!

I'll have to show him this.

Oh and thanks

 

[Spad]

Letter is dated 1987, is it still valid? I hope so.....changes some things. Last class I was at(less the 6 months ago) the instructor was of the opinion the firearm had to be kept on your person in a vehicle. Washington State. Spad

 

[Trlsmn]

OK let me throw out some food for thought, the statute RCW 9.41.050 does not specify a valid Washington permit but only a valid weapon permit so.......?

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.


(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.

RCW 9.41.073
Concealed pistol license &#8212; Reciprocity.


(1)(a) A person licensed to carry a pistol in a state the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington is authorized to carry a concealed pistol in this state if:

(i) The licensing state does not issue concealed pistol licenses to persons under twenty-one years of age; and

(ii) The licensing state requires mandatory fingerprint-based background checks of criminal and mental health history for all persons who apply for a concealed pistol license.

(b) This section applies to a license holder from another state only while the license holder is not a resident of this state. A license holder from another state must carry the handgun in compliance with the laws of this state.

(2) The attorney general shall periodically publish a list of states the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington and which meet the requirements of subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii) of this section.

[2004 c 148 § 1.]

 

[cwegga]

Letter is dated 1987, is it still valid? I hope so.....changes some things. Last class I was at(less the 6 months ago) the instructor was of the opinion the firearm had to be kept on your person in a vehicle. Washington State. Spad

Well, the RCW hasn't changed and the rules of grammar haven't changed. So I'd say your instructor needs to work on his English skills. As far as I'm concerned the meaning is obvious when reading RCW 9.41.050 2a. The letter was just a lawyer agreeing with how I've always interpreted it.

 

[Spad]

The instructor was a retired Chief of Police, so I think his bona fides to make the statement carry some weight. Seems the obvious is who stops you and his interpetration at that time will take precedence. Maybe someone with a Washington State legal background could comment. Spad

 

[mjbskwim]

The paragraph just below the RCW ,on the first page,is the one that explains it all the best
Its a picture so I can't copy the text.

Trlsmn.... huh?

 

[Spad]

The letter about the gun in the car not on person.Look who was the Deputy A.G. at the time, our present Governor, Christine. So I'm gonna make a copy of this and stick it in all my cars. Ha. Works for me. I think the interpetation is correct. Obviously the instructor was erring on the safe side,that is my thought. Thanks for all the information,now I'm gonna stick that holster set up back in my vehicles. Spad

 

[MarkAd]

anyone know how to mount a holster in a xar without damaging the car?

 

[Spad]

Think it depends on a lot of things. Weight and size of pistol. One of the ones that I did was with velcro.Got a small camera type bag from Wal-Mart, clued velcro back of the bag. And clued the other Velcro side to the tranny tunnel with Model airplane epoxy.You can get industrial grade velcro that is pretty strong.Alsothe material you have inside your car makes a difference In my truck coupla screws in the transmission tunnel, just screwed the holster into the tunnel, if you take the screws out you really can't see where the holes are. I'm gonnachange that now and bolt it in.Going to probably bolt the other cars too now. Both cases this was for a Makarov 9mm.Use you imagination,you might come up with something.Spad

 

[Nwcid]

The instructor was a retired Chief of Police, so I think his bona fides to make the statement carry some weight. Seems the obvious is who stops you and his interpetration at that time will take precedence. Maybe someone with a Washington State legal background could comment. Spad

Not trying to cop bash here but this is the WORST source of legal information ever.

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.


(2)(a) States in plain english that you can have a "loaded pistol" in a vehicle IF you have a CPL and it is on your person OR, you are in the vehicle, OR it is locked and out of sight if you are away from the vehicle.

, = or, it does not = and. As long as you meet ONE of the three conditions it is legal. If , = and you would have to meet all three requirements and it is pretty hard to be in and out of your car at the same time.......

 

[mjbskwim]

The letter about the gun in the car not on person.Look who was the Deputy A.G. at the time, our present Governor, Christine. So I'm gonna make a copy of this and stick it in all my cars. Ha. Works for me. I think the interpetation is correct. Obviously the instructor was erring on the safe side,that is my thought. Thanks for all the information,now I'm gonna stick that holster set up back in my vehicles. Spad

REMEMBER The gun can only be accessible TO YOU and probably should be within arms length so you have "control" of the gun. So unless you passenger has a CPL,they cannot have access to the gun.

Nwcid?

And then if you read the next RCW ,it almost negates everything this RCW states
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060

 

[Nwcid]

Nwcid?

And then if you read the next RCW ,it almost negates everything this RCW states
RCW 9.41.060: Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

Correct. Was just pointing out the "On your person" argument.

 

[mjbskwim]

Correct. Was just pointing out the "On your person" argument.

No I was asking you to confirm the "in reach" part

 

[Nwcid]

No I was asking you to confirm the "in reach" part

Sorry. In my opinion, and it is just that but based on law, I would think it would not be too much of an issues unless maybe, and I do mean maybe the passenger is a felon. No matter how "safe and rule following" you are if you get the wrong LEO on the wrong day that just wants to be a pain you can be 100% right and still be wrong till you go to court. I have met that guy from time to time and been to court over stuff that was blatantly obvious to everyone but the LEO at that moment, but the judge made it clear to the LEO in court.

In the case of drugs found in a vehicle they are the person in control of the vehicle unless you can prove otherwise. As the operator of the vehicle you are "responsible" for the vehicle and everything in it. So to me it would stand to reason (and I see no law against it) the gun could be anywhere in the vehicle and still considered "yours and in control. Even with my NFA stuff "in control" simply means I am there with the item even if someone else is using it at the moment. Now if you were riding around and your passenger had the pistol concealed on him without a CPL that would be an issue.

The major part of most laws like this is that if you are not doing anything wrong in the first place you have very little chance of this even being an issue. Another example is the Silencer law in WA. It is poorly worded, no exemptions, and no prosecutions on anyone in LEGAL possession of one. You have very little risk an LEO causing you problems if you are just out plinking. Now if you are doing something else illegal or extremely dumb you have a very high chance of having an issue.

Hopefully my opinion, based on what I know, helps.

 

[mjbskwim]

Yeah ,it just may come up if you had a kid in the car and the gun siting there next to him.
Again the ex-sheriff/gun store owner said the gun in the glove box is NOT in your control....If the passenger door is locked and no passengers,how is it not "in your control?

And again don't ask a cop for legal advice.

 

[Nwcid]

Yeah ,it just may come up if you had a kid in the car and the gun siting there next to him.
Again the ex-sheriff/gun store owner said the gun in the glove box is NOT in your control....If the passenger door is locked and no passengers,how is it not "in your control?

So a gun in the glove box is not in your control but according to the law you are in control of a minor to make them wear their seat belt cause they can not be in control of that. Or if you have a gun anywhere in your house then you kid would suddenly be in control if it there too... The logic just doesn't stand up to me.

Also the law says nothing about control, it simply say "in a vehicle"..............

And again don't ask a cop for legal advice.

EXACTLY

 

[TCOV]

I keep a copy of the AG letter in my vehicles. The confusion with older and retired officers is that prior to the current RCW it was required to have the weapon on your person when in the vehicle. It seems a lot of police don't keep up to date when changes to the law are made and sometimes pass on out of date information. I was stopped a few years ago by WSP and my pistol was not on my person and he had no problem with that.

 

[WIRED tactical]

Now I know that in Alaska you have to declare you have your concealed pistol with you in the car AS SOON as the officer makes contact with you. Although I believe this is due to Alaska not requiring a CPL to conceal.

Is this the same way with WA state? I don't want to have my handgun confiscated because I didn't let the officer know right away that I have a CP in the car with me. (I'm referring to that Alaska State Troopers episode where this happens)