L E take on open carry

[davemata]

In MA I didn't have the stones to do it, but in my town there was a guy that insisted on OCing and was arrested once a week or so for it until his license to carry was pulled and the town PD took all his guns, ammo, and accessories.

He had a license to carry and they arrested him for it anyway?

What would the charges be?????[/QUOTE]

It was systematic police harassment, he never got charged. Always threats of Disorderly Conduct. However, due to how MA laws are, the chief can remove your 2A right at any time for any reason or no reason due to being given the leeway in law to determine unilaterally if you are "suitable".

 

[rsmccsman]

He had a license to carry and they arrested him for it anyway?

What would the charges be?????

It was systematic police harassment, he never got charged. Always threats of Disorderly Conduct. However, due to how MA laws are, the chief can remove your 2A right at any time for any reason or no reason due to being given the leeway in law to determine unilaterally if you are "suitable".[/QUOTE]

Wow MA from the birthplace of liberty to the tyranny of the liberals. It seems like there are still free states and slave states.

 

[davemata]

Wow MA from the birthplace of liberty to the tyranny of the liberals. It seems like there are still free states and slave states.

I always got a laugh out of our license plates.
They read: "Spirit of America"

Indeed, we got to see what it looks like when America dies.

 

[Misterbill]

It was systematic police harassment, he never got charged. Always threats of Disorderly Conduct. However, due to how MA laws are, the chief can remove your 2A right at any time for any reason or no reason due to being given the leeway in law to determine unilaterally if you are "suitable".

Wow MA from the birthplace of liberty to the tyranny of the liberals. It seems like there are still free states and slave states.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, Dave and I come from the same area. Mass is the WORST of the so-called "may issue" states. It's slightly less corrupt than Chicago. SLIGHTLY. And yes, this describes the whole state.

 

[Asavage270]

LEO's have their opinions based on their experiences generally.

for instance, about two months ago i politly asked a LEO here in eugene oregon what his take on open carrying in a vehicle was. His words here "Expect the buisness end of my 9mm to be pointed in your face, but feel free to open carry"

now, in another circumstance, another cop from eugene gladly answered all my questions without a back handed threat.

from experience, it all depends on the officer.

 

[DuneHopper]

I was thinking about this topic and well with all the crazy stuff lately, if I was a cop and saw and open carry I may not be as easy going as I might have been a few weeks ago.
I mean by the time they Identify you with a 45 strapped to your hip and cautiously try to attempt to approach
that gotta kill some nerve endings. I in the last 4-5 day I have noticed allot more people carrying so would stand to reason more cop interaction may make then nervous would me. That is why any time I interact with a officer, I make my hands seen and even if I have to interupt him I make sure he hear me say I have a CHL and my weapon is wherever it is. Not required to I know, but damn well make life easier for you and the officer.

 

[hermannr]

I was thinking about this topic and well with all the crazy stuff lately, if I was a cop and saw and open carry I may not be as easy going as I might have been a few weeks ago.
I mean by the time they Identify you with a 45 strapped to your hip and cautiously try to attempt to approach
that gotta kill some nerve endings. I in the last 4-5 day I have noticed allot more people carrying so would stand to reason more cop interaction may make then nervous would me. That is why any time I interact with a officer, I make my hands seen and even if I have to interupt him I make sure he hear me say I have a CHL and my weapon is wherever it is. Not required to I know, but damn well make life easier for you and the officer.

You are looking at it wrong. Criminals hide their weapons, LE and Law abiding citizens are not affraid to show everyone they are armed...it is called the "deterent effect". Where do the cops have more trouble? The UK? or the US? The difference is US LE is armed, generally the UK LEO is not (though that is changing)

You see it in nature all the time. Brightly colored frogs are probably poision to the bird that wants to eat it. That brightly colored frog is telling the bird...you really do not want to try harm me, becasue I may just harm you.

The person that OC's tells the criminal the same thing..I might harm you if you try to do something bad to me. And, to the LEO, he should view that OC weapon as potential instant backup, not as a threat. From the editorial in PoliceOne, and the comments posted on it, it appears to me that about 9 out of every 10 posters view the armed Law abiding civilian as backup, not an enemy or danger.

 

[DuneHopper]

You are looking at it wrong. Criminals hide their weapons, LE and Law abiding citizens are not affraid to show everyone they are armed...it is called the "deterent effect". Where do the cops have more trouble? The UK? or the US? The difference is US LE is armed, generally the UK LEO is not (though that is changing)

You see it in nature all the time. Brightly colored frogs are probably poision to the bird that wants to eat it. That brightly colored frog is telling the bird...you really do not want to try harm me, becasue I may just harm you.

The person that OC's tells the criminal the same thing..I might harm you if you try to do something bad to me. And, to the LEO, he should view that OC weapon as potential instant backup, not as a threat. From the editorial in PoliceOne, and the comments posted on it, it appears to me that about 9 out of every 10 posters view the armed Law abiding civilian as backup, not an enemy or danger.

Ok, I actually never looked at it that way, appreciate the response. hmmm food for thought definitely !

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I always got a laugh out of our license plates.
They read: "Spirit of America"

Indeed, we got to see what it looks like when America dies.

3 of my ancestors were there on April 19th, 1775.. one was captured while trying to unharness the horse from his milk delivery wagon (he was headed to Boston early in the AM) so he could ride to Lexington to warn the militia of approaching redcoats, another died on Lexington Green after firing on the redcoats,. and the 3rd (Militia Captain) led the 2nd charge on the bridge at Concord that broke the redcoat ranks and sent them into a full 60 mile retreat to Boston. Lord Harry the times we have seen, and how art the mighty fallen

BTW for everyone.. concerning poison frogs..George Washington called arms the "peoples liberty teeth".. and Ben Franklin used a poison snake for a battle flag, "Don't Tread on Me"

 

[davemata]

3 of my ancestors were there on April 19th, 1775.. one was captured while trying to unharness the horse from his milk delivery wagon (he was headed to Boston early in the AM) so he could ride to Lexington to warn the militia of approaching redcoats, another died on Lexington Green after firing on the redcoats,. and the 3rd (Militia Captain) led the 2nd charge on the bridge at Concord that broke the redcoat ranks and sent them into a full 60 mile retreat to Boston. Lord Harry the times we have seen, and how art the mighty fallen

BTW for everyone.. concerning poison frogs..George Washington called arms the "peoples liberty teeth".. and Ben Franklin used a poison snake for a battle flag, "Don't Tread on Me"

Good aancetors Blitz. My only known New England ancestor was on the other side, Colonial Governor. I bet he was a Tory jerk.

Have you ever been to Lexington and Concord? It's something. Lot of the houses at the green have been kept period.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

No, have not yet been but plan to, my friend. Did you know that there was a Clinton who was a Tory general? DNA matters... types breed true

 

[davemata]

No, have not yet been but plan to, my friend. Did you know that there was a Clinton who was a Tory general? DNA matters... types breed true

Not a surprise, but there are a lot of Clintons.

Give it a few generations and we might end up like the UK anyway...

 

[koolminx]

I only open carry due to the 10" barrel on my .44 and nobody ever gives me crap about it. Not cops not folks in the restaurants and stores I go into. Low on my hip, most folk think I'm some kind of actor when they first see me.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Not a surprise, but there are a lot of Clintons.

Give it a few generations and we might end up like the UK anyway...

I believe George Washington's vision is accurate and we will win in the end. Take heart..

<broken link removed>

 

[davemata]

If it's only 3 challenges, I think we'll be ok.

I worry that as a people, we've abdicated too much power to those who would like to control us.

 

[BillB1960]

You are looking at it wrong. Criminals hide their weapons, LE and Law abiding citizens are not affraid to show everyone they are armed...it is called the "deterent effect". Where do the cops have more trouble? The UK? or the US? The difference is US LE is armed, generally the UK LEO is not (though that is changing)

You see it in nature all the time. Brightly colored frogs are probably poision to the bird that wants to eat it. That brightly colored frog is telling the bird...you really do not want to try harm me, becasue I may just harm you.

The person that OC's tells the criminal the same thing..I might harm you if you try to do something bad to me. And, to the LEO, he should view that OC weapon as potential instant backup, not as a threat. From the editorial in PoliceOne, and the comments posted on it, it appears to me that about 9 out of every 10 posters view the armed Law abiding civilian as backup, not an enemy or danger.

Some interesting logic here but I have to take issue with a few points. Criminals hide their weapons because they're not supposed to have them. I'm not a criminal and I only carry concealed. Why? Tactical advantage. As far as LE goes only uniformed officers open carry, plain clothes do not.

Yes there is a deterrent effect to open carry but only to a "casual" bad guy. If they're determined then you're simply the biggest target and the first to go. Open carry in today's society irrespective of the most recent tragedies draws unnecessary attention to you. You think you're a "hard target" but in reality you're just a target of a different kind. The last thing I want is a bunch of people looking askance at me because I have a gun strapped to my hip in plain sight.

Sure nature has examples of brightly colored prey warding off predators, it also has plenty of examples of prey that blends in and employs a nasty surprise for the would be predator when attacked.

 

[hermannr]

Some interesting logic here but I have to take issue with a few points. Criminals hide their weapons because they're not supposed to have them. I'm not a criminal and I only carry concealed. Why? Tactical advantage. As far as LE goes only uniformed officers open carry, plain clothes do not.

Yes there is a deterrent effect to open carry but only to a "casual" bad guy. If they're determined then you're simply the biggest target and the first to go. Open carry in today's society irrespective of the most recent tragedies draws unnecessary attention to you. You think you're a "hard target" but in reality you're just a target of a different kind. The last thing I want is a bunch of people looking askance at me because I have a gun strapped to my hip in plain sight.

Sure nature has examples of brightly colored prey warding off predators, it also has plenty of examples of prey that blends in and employs a nasty surprise for the would be predator when attacked.

Have you ever read the Idaho Supreme Court Decision "in re Brickley" (1902)? Criminals have always hid their weapons. There were no "prohibited persons" in 1902, and when you got out of prison, your debt to society was considered Paid in full. You will have to look it up, I don't have the link on this computer yet...just google "in re Brickley 1902" and you will find it easily, Very short read, and very to the point.

As to LEO, you are wrong their also. Some detectives, or better, undercover detectives conceal, some do not. Just because you are a detective does not mean you automatically must conceal your weapon.

The LEO carries openly to show that he can protect himself (unlike LEO's in the UK) and if necessary, can force his will on others,

There is no more "tactical advantage" to concealing for the licensed carrier, then there is, or is not, for the BG. Personally, that whole concept is so full of holes...my thing is; I do NOT want to use my carry...I also do NOT want to be bothered by anyone with evil intent. I could care less about any kind of surprise advantage, and I do not care if someone calls in MWAG on me...it has happened, did not even slow down what I was doing. The LEO contact lasted all of 15 sec, and I did not even raise my head from what I was doing.

People that are diehard conceal freaks are just afraid of a LE contact, and come up with a lot of lame excuses...and that is all wrong. We should not be afraid of our LE personell, we should be their immeadiate backup if they need it. If everyone hides their carry all the time, how are the LE officers going to know who is good and who is bad?

There was an FBI study out about 10 or 15 years ago that stated, people with criminal intent do not carry openly, and in general, rarely use a holster. Why? So they can ditch the weapon quickly, and not have to worry about explaining away the holster. This is just the way it has always been, long before the stupidness of the CGA68 and "prohibited persons".

 

[hermannr]

.

Yes there is a deterrent effect to open carry but only to a "casual" bad guy. If they're determined then you're simply the biggest target and the first to go. Open carry in today's society irrespective of the most recent tragedies draws unnecessary attention to you. You think you're a "hard target" but in reality you're just a target of a different kind. The last thing I want is a bunch of people looking askance at me because I have a gun strapped to my hip in plain sight.

.

I want to address this one seperately: Do you remember in Seattle, a year or so ago, this hardened criminal walked into a coffee shop and just shot four LEO's?

Now, do you think this same guy would have bothered me, if I was sitting in that same coffee shop, with my openly carried weapon, but I was at a completely different table?

I don't. I think that guy shot those officers specifically because they were officers. He didn't even stop to collect the weapons, he just shot them and left. It was his retaliation for the law putting him in jail, it had nothing to do with guns.

Now, if I had been there and pulled my weapon, I might have been shot, or I might have gotten off a shot, or I might have delayed him enough that one of teh officers could get off a shot at him....never know, wasn't there, but if you were there concealed and pulled your weapon, don't you think the various senario's would be the same....ya think?

In my 42+ years of OC (mostly unlicensed) I know for sure of one case my holster pistol stopped something bad for me, and my pistol never left it's holster...and I have never had any other confrontations. Your "hardened criminal" senario may have happened somewhere, but I've never heard of one that was verifiable,,,,and i do know I have read verifiable stories of CC persons being robbed, of their carry too.

Oh, may I add: When the Newton CT shoot first came out, I was in a small retail store, at the checkout. I said..."and that is exactly why I carry"...The owner of the stores answer to that statement? EXACTLY!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

LEO's have their opinions based on their experiences generally.

for instance, about two months ago i politly asked a LEO here in eugene oregon what his take on open carrying in a vehicle was. His words here "Expect the buisness end of my 9mm to be pointed in your face, but feel free to open carry"

now, in another circumstance, another cop from eugene gladly answered all my questions without a back handed threat.

from experience, it all depends on the officer.

Sounds to me like a crime was committed. He had the gun, he had the proximity and was threatening brandishing and lethal assault. Too bad you did not have a camcorder running

 

[BillB1960]

Have you ever read the Idaho Supreme Court Decision "in re Brickley" (1902)? Criminals have always hid their weapons. There were no "prohibited persons" in 1902, and when you got out of prison, your debt to society was considered Paid in full. You will have to look it up, I don't have the link on this computer yet...just google "in re Brickley 1902" and you will find it easily, Very short read, and very to the point.

As to LEO, you are wrong their also. Some detectives, or better, undercover detectives conceal, some do not. Just because you are a detective does not mean you automatically must conceal your weapon.

The LEO carries openly to show that he can protect himself (unlike LEO's in the UK) and if necessary, can force his will on others,

There is no more "tactical advantage" to concealing for the licensed carrier, then there is, or is not, for the BG. Personally, that whole concept is so full of holes...my thing is; I do NOT want to use my carry...I also do NOT want to be bothered by anyone with evil intent. I could care less about any kind of surprise advantage, and I do not care if someone calls in MWAG on me...it has happened, did not even slow down what I was doing. The LEO contact lasted all of 15 sec, and I did not even raise my head from what I was doing.

People that are diehard conceal freaks are just afraid of a LE contact, and come up with a lot of lame excuses...and that is all wrong. We should not be afraid of our LE personell, we should be their immeadiate backup if they need it. If everyone hides their carry all the time, how are the LE officers going to know who is good and who is bad?

There was an FBI study out about 10 or 15 years ago that stated, people with criminal intent do not carry openly, and in general, rarely use a holster. Why? So they can ditch the weapon quickly, and not have to worry about explaining away the holster. This is just the way it has always been, long before the stupidness of the CGA68 and "prohibited persons".

Wow, 1902 Idaho Supreme Court decision. Yeah that has a lot to do with how gang bangers in Portland do their business these days.

It's nice that you live in the middle of BFE and can carry openly. That simply doesn't apply to large population centers where people get extremely nervous when they see people swaggering around with guns openly displayed on their hips. The fact is that the vast majority of people on the street mean you know harm. Why do you want to make them nervous for the .01% who may harbor bad intentions? I guarantee you that if you go bopping around downtown Portland or any of the close in suburban communities with an openly displayed weapon you're going to end up talking to a LEO sooner rather than later. Who needs that hassle? Sure it may be legal but there's better ways to meet people and why would you intentionally put yourself on their radar screen?

I have nothing but respect for most LEOs and would not hesitate to assist one if they were in trouble but frankly if a cop is in combat mode with his/her gun drawn the last thing I want them to see is another gun on my hip. If I'm CC then I choose when or if they see my gun at all, OC and at best I'm a distraction as a potential threat, at worst I'm mistaken for a bad guy and potential target.