Killer Caravans ...

[CountryGent]

Whilst engaging in a flatulent foray on TextFiles, I came across an old short from Kurt Saxon on the topic, entitled "Killer Caravans", which covers brigand bands in the collapse of civilization. (The aforementioned author wrote a number of preparedness and related books back in the day. Much of it ranged from of debatable value to dangerously stupid. Though it is a curious cultural artifact, if nothing else. Beep-beep.)

Regardless, the concept warrants consideration; after all the history of major disasters or complete societal collapse often featured factionalization along various lines. In some cases it is simply a group of people thrown together in the midst of the chaos. However, the history, recent and in the distant past, featured chaos resulting in people organizing (and falling along) sectarian, tribal, ideological, racial, classist or some other line. Similarly, disaster and post-apocalyptic fiction (and for that matter the various mythologies that have survived in print and/or tradition until the present) are loaded with such allusions.

And of course, more to the point of Mr. Saxon's rather unartful contribution, hordes just coming together as bandits, thieves, and thugs. Fictional examples that come to mind are the "New Brotherhood Army" in Lucifer's Hammer, the bikers in Dawn of the Dead, the highway robbers in Alas, Babylon, and, naturally, the marauders in Mad Max.

Queries:

1. Have you deeply considered this possibility? How do you think it will shake out in the developed world, or more directly, our society?
2. How have you / will you prepare for such?
3. If uninterested in being part of such groups, how do you plan to protect and provide for your own? There would be a multiplicity of factors, of course.
4. Is there any scenario in which you could see being part of such a group? Why and how would you square the ethics?
5. In such an imagined reversion to tribalism how do you see social mores, norms, customs, and language changing?

Thanks for sharing.

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[CamoDeafie]

Queries:

1. Have you deeply considered this possibility? How do you think it will shake out in the developed world, or more directly, our society?
2. How have you / will you prepare for such?
3. If uninterested in being part of such groups, how do you plan to protect and provide for your own? There would be a multiplicity of factors, of course.
4. Is there any scenario in which you could see being part of such a group? Why and how would you square the ethics?
5. In such an imagined reversion to tribalism how do you see social mores, norms, customs, and language changing?

Thanks for sharing.

One word.
Gangs.

Such things exist even in "civilized" world.

Look to Antifa.
To CHAZ/CHOP
MS13
Cartels

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Time to invest in that forced reset trigger.

 

[American123]

Steps as follows:
-Have guns and ammo and food and water
-Have friends who have the same
-Plan accordingly

 

[MasterChief]

Perps gonna perp.....DIRT NAPS for those that participate. If you don't think bad guys/gals run together... explain why we have gangs and corrupt politicians. It's ok....I'll wait....

 

[American123]

Perps gonna perp.....DIRT NAPS for those that participate. If you don't think bad guys/gals run together... explain why we have gangs and corrupt politicians. It's ok....I'll wait....

Seems like the biggest difficulty will be determining neutral party or foe, unless you're just going to go through the whole situation like a hammer and everyone you see becomes a nail. I see some people in threads similar to this talk about lobbing shots at 500 yards, it always makes me wonder because what if those people aren't threats? How would a person know at 500 yards in a situation where there aren't obvious sides fighting against eachother?

 

[Ura-Ki]

Full on Mad Max complete with apocalypse war rigs out of necessity and killer fashion sense!
Several years ago, There was a sort of post collapse type show that looked to my eyes a most accurate look at what things here might look like once the fecal matter meets the rotating air motivator! I cannot remember the name of the show, or even really tell you that much about it, but it was an eye opener and got us thinking about things we hadn't really thought of! First and foremost, folks will become feral in a very short time, and from then on, expect lots of fighting over dwindling supplies and resources! unless you have a group of trusted folks with a common plan to survive, your on your onesom and extremely vulnerable!

 

[American123]

Full on Mad Max complete with apocalypse war rigs out of necessity and killer fashion sense!
Several years ago, There was a sort of post collapse type show that looked to my eyes a most accurate look at what things here might look like once the fecal matter meets the rotating air motivator! I cannot remember the name of the show, or even really tell you that much about it, but it was an eye opener and got us thinking about things we hadn't really thought of! First and foremost, folks will become feral in a very short time, and from then on, expect lots of fighting over dwindling supplies and resources! unless you have a group of trusted folks with a common plan to survive, your on your onesom and extremely vulnerable!

That why I'm having 10 kids. I'll make my own squad. I just have to get the wife to agree to the plan… that or get more wives… this plan is already getting a bit complicated.

 

[Ura-Ki]

ONE wife is bad enough, imagine a whole squad of um!

I think the kids are a better plan!

 

[American123]

ONE wife is bad enough, imagine a whole squad of um!

I think the kids are a better plan!

It's rather amazing the transformation that takes place when the girlfriend becomes the wife. You're right, I'll revise my previous statement, I could get 10 girlfriends.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Just think, 10 Girlfriends, times two kids, assuming at least half boys, you got your self the beginnings of your own country!

I like your thinking, especially if you can trade off girlfriends for newer better!

 

[American123]

Just think, 10 Girlfriends, times two kids, assuming at least half boys, you got your self the beginnings of your own country!

I like your thinking, especially if you can trade off girlfriends for newer better!

I wonder what the number of kids to quality parenting /life experience ratio is, because at some point you simply don't have enough time to do a meaningful job raising them if there are too many ways your time is split.

Regarding the trading for a better model option, I'm pretty sure I have already used up my "trade up" voucher, that's how I ended up with wife #2 after ditching wife #1. As an early 20's guy finding I was a lot dumber than I thought I was because I had managed to get married to someone who I in hindsight should have never been married to and actually should ran in the opposite direction of very quickly. I figured it would be difficult to find someone more vile to spend the rest of my life with so it made sense to find an upgrade. After enough dates that my parents started to call me a "man-whore," I found the new and improved wife model about 5 years later. We've got kid #1 now, only 9 more to go!

 

[gmerkt]

Probably not likely to happen around here. But, we have to think about all possibilities.

My property has only a short road frontage exposure, it goes deep and is surrounded by other properties, if that is any advantage.

My neighbors aren't close by but we are friendly and communicating. I've got six neighboring prioperties that adjoin mine. We've never discussed such potentialities. I know from casual discussion that one neighbor to my west has a .357 Magnum. My neighbor on the east has a gun safe in a closet which I saw quite by accident once but we've never discussed its contents. My Mormon neighbors on the north may or may not be armed, because they have seven children around and may eschew firearms, I haven't asked. Neighbors not adjoining my land, I know some of those must be armed. One family just down the hill a little way has a couple of monster pickups with muddy tires on them, plus several two wheelers, I imagine they have guns. One neighbor who moved in here 34 years ago about the same time we did, I'm pretty sure he has some kind of cannon. In general, I imagine that many of my neighbors are armed and we might be able to raise a small, local defense force on fairly short notice should it be required. Lots of us are retired and around most of the time. Only people who have lived here a fair while can afford to do so now, properly values have gotten ridiculous high due to Monopoly money. As a result, I don't have many new neighbors.

Any banding together of neighbors I view as purely defensive and temporary. I have no interest in joining a roving band. I hope not to be around if or when the US turns Somalia-like. For defense, I have up to what the state of Wash. allows and adequent ammo for a long stand-off. I have plenty of ammo for neighbors so long as they have the most common contemporary arms. I wouldn't foresee long stand-offs, however. Roving bands are likely to want to concentrate on weak targets unless they have intelligence information that might guide them to a specific one. So, desiring easy pickings, it's been my thought previously that once a roving band took some serious fire, they would back off and continue the search for the softer stuff elsewhere.

It helps that where I live, dwellings are fairly far apart, fields of fire could be set up, there are only two road entrances and both of those have serious terrain challenges.

 

[Alexx1401]

Assuming its "short term" as in gangs roaming until the Military sets up I have long said the weak are the ones who become food. Mobs, gangs, all have one thing in common. They go for the low hanging fruit. They do not want to get into rolling gun battles, at least not early on. There are FAR too many who do not, or will not own a gun. They would be the first ones to become food. Those who can fight? Would be pretty much left alone as long as there is easier pickings .

 

[308]

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[Howard1955]

Whilst engaging in a flatulent foray on TextFiles, I came across an old short from Kurt Saxon on the topic, entitled "Killer Caravans", which covers brigand bands in the collapse of civilization. (The aforementioned author wrote a number of preparedness and related books back in the day. Much of it ranged from of debatable value to dangerously stupid. Though it is a curious cultural artifact, if nothing else. Beep-beep.)

Regardless, the concept warrants consideration; after all the history of major disasters or complete societal collapse often featured factionalization along various lines. In some cases it is simply a group of people thrown together in the midst of the chaos. However, the history, recent and in the distant past, featured chaos resulting in people organizing (and falling along) sectarian, tribal, ideological, racial, classist or some other line. Similarly, disaster and post-apocalyptic fiction (and for that matter the various mythologies that have survived in print and/or tradition until the present) are loaded with such allusions.

And of course, more to the point of Mr. Saxon's rather unartful contribution, hordes just coming together as bandits, thieves, and thugs. Fictional examples that come to mind are the "New Brotherhood Army" in Lucifer's Hammer, the bikers in Dawn of the Dead, the highway robbers in Alas, Babylon, and, naturally, the marauders in Mad Max.

Queries:

1. Have you deeply considered this possibility? How do you think it will shake out in the developed world, or more directly, our society?
2. How have you / will you prepare for such?
3. If uninterested in being part of such groups, how do you plan to protect and provide for your own? There would be a multiplicity of factors, of course.
4. Is there any scenario in which you could see being part of such a group? Why and how would you square the ethics?
5. In such an imagined reversion to tribalism how do you see social mores, norms, customs, and language changing?

Thanks for sharing.

I could never take part in marauding - but I fully expect that such things are going to happen.

Some good people will probably show up at our farmhouse, looking for a handout - or for work. That kind of thing was fairly common when my Dad was a teenager, and left home to "ride the rails". The hoboes developed their own systems for communicating with each other, and would draw little symbols (on a gatepost or something near a house) to let others know if the occupants would hire or feed a hobo who went to their door.

So, some of the people who come asking for help will probably be like that. But how to tell? It might be safest for my family if we just refuse to talk to anyone who comes to the door.

Armed thugs will definitely be a problem. And they might be "official". (Think Hurricane Katrina.)

As to how a family can prepare for such times: I think the old adage "Don't put all of your eggs into one basket" applies. If some of your preps are hidden away (or at a second location), then you'll still have what you need after the raiders have come and gone. A long-range rifle at your second location might even help you retake your homestead, if it came to that.

A couple of guns, a couple boxes of ammunition, and a box or two of canned goods that can be 'sacrificed' to state-sanctioned marauders might buy a family some time. But in the end, we'll probably have to fight.

But I don't think a geezer like myself stands much of a chance against marauders, unless I have help from friends and neighbors. I plan to do my best to help people (family first), and always be ready to meet my Maker.

 

[revjen45]

Looters aren't Nork Marines, as in they won't be into dying for the Dear Leader. When they see 2 or 3 people scream and fall down when they get 500m. or so from their objective it's gonna give at least some of them 2nd thoughts.
One thing I didn't see mentioned is range cards. With a little bit of such preps dropping the bad guys from that far will be no problem.
Yeah, autoloaders would the the 1st choice for general carry but when it comes right down to brass tacks there ain't a whole lot of difference between a magazine fed scoped CF hunting rifle and a Designated Marksman rifle.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Have you deeply considered this possibility? How do you think it will shake out in the developed world, or more directly, our society?

Definitely thought about it. I think it will take a few years for it to get bad, especially in my little neck of the woods. I think it also depends on how global it is. If it's just our country, it won't last long before another nation rolls in to "effect peace" ("conquer"). If it's global, then it could collapse much quicker and certainly would never be the same.

How have you / will you prepare for such?

We keep a fairly large chuck of food on hand and have enough generator and fuel to run for a while. That being said, I don't have near enough foodstuffs that will last without some sort of refrigeration so something I need to work on. We also have a wood stove for heat and cooking in a pinch and I have a few cords of wood and logs float by the house on the river everyday. I might have to start burning chitty arsed cottonwood, but a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do right?

If uninterested in being part of such groups, how do you plan to protect and provide for your own? There would be a multiplicity of factors, of course.

I live on a river and when things start to look bad, I'll have the boat at the ready for a quick escape. I don't have as many firearms & ammo as most of you probably have, but I definitely have enough to get me through a few firefights. As others have noted, I think after a few shots and bloodshed, the majority of these bands of marauders will look for easier targets. We have some fruit trees on the property and the room to start a garden if necessary. There are a ton of deer that wander through the yard daily so we'd have protein until the locals wipe them out.

1. Is there any scenario in which you could see being part of such a group? Why and how would you square the ethics?

The only group I'd be part of (at least early in the scenario) would be with my close neighbors. We've already had discussions over a few beers about similar situations so the preparations do get a bit animated and outlandish dependent on the amount of alcohol intake, but the main one we always come back to is the kill box we will create. A couple of us have the river behind us and the others have cow pasture behind them with the road between us. Anyone coming in/out on the road is going to get themselves shot up. Nobody is going to sneak up through a cow pasture without being seen and coming in via the river is going to be noticed early.

1. In such an imagined reversion to tribalism how do you see social mores, norms, customs, and language changing?

I don't see much changing until the power/communications grid goes down and then it will still be a few years. By then either China or Russia will have taken over so we'll be back under some sort of government.....which will bring on a whole different slew of survival problems....

Great topic @CountryGent

 

[Knobgoblin]

Probably not likely to happen around here. But, we have to think about all possibilities.

My property has only a short road frontage exposure, it goes deep and is surrounded by other properties, if that is any advantage.

My neighbors aren't close by but we are friendly and communicating. I've got six neighboring prioperties that adjoin mine. We've never discussed such potentialities. I know from casual discussion that one neighbor to my west has a .357 Magnum. My neighbor on the east has a gun safe in a closet which I saw quite by accident once but we've never discussed its contents. My Mormon neighbors on the north may or may not be armed, because they have seven children around and may eschew firearms, I haven't asked. Neighbors not adjoining my land, I know some of those must be armed. One family just down the hill a little way has a couple of monster pickups with muddy tires on them, plus several two wheelers, I imagine they have guns. One neighbor who moved in here 34 years ago about the same time we did, I'm pretty sure he has some kind of cannon. In general, I imagine that many of my neighbors are armed and we might be able to raise a small, local defense force on fairly short notice should it be required. Lots of us are retired and around most of the time. Only people who have lived here a fair while can afford to do so now, properly values have gotten ridiculous high due to Monopoly money. As a result, I don't have many new neighbors.

Any banding together of neighbors I view as purely defensive and temporary. I have no interest in joining a roving band. I hope not to be around if or when the US turns Somalia-like. For defense, I have up to what the state of Wash. allows and adequent ammo for a long stand-off. I have plenty of ammo for neighbors so long as they have the most common contemporary arms. I wouldn't foresee long stand-offs, however. Roving bands are likely to want to concentrate on weak targets unless they have intelligence information that might guide them to a specific one. So, desiring easy pickings, it's been my thought previously that once a roving band took some serious fire, they would back off and continue the search for the softer stuff elsewhere.

It helps that where I live, dwellings are fairly far apart, fields of fire could be set up, there are only two road entrances and both of those have serious terrain challenges.

Lol.
Don't let the bike helmets and white shirts fool you.
Your mormon neighbors are definitely strapped.

 

[P7M13]

What are your thoughts, @CountryGent ?