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Kick Factor

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by Lickskillet, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. Lickskillet

    Lickskillet Land Of Big Sticks Member

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    I am wondering how the kick factor on a bolt action 270wsm is compared to a bolt action 300mag? No muzzle break on either one. Same load. I am asking because I am needing to get my son a rifle and I am set on a 270. I may have an opportunity to get 270 short mag but dont want to do it if its going to be too much on him. I have never shot a bolt 270 or a 270 wsm so not sure how much diff there is. I know how my 300 feels and am just wondering how it compares to a 270 or 270wsm...

    Thanks,
     
  2. svg4

    svg4 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    You might want to start him on some low recoil rounds. Most manufacturers have them. If you are a loader Google IMR Trail Boss. I just started using it and I think it would be a great way to get used to a rifle, even if they have shot large caliber before. It sounds like there might be a question in your mind about his reaction. Why not make him love it instead of chancing that he might fear it or develop a flinch. Good luck.
     
  3. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    read svg's post again. then read it again. Unless your kid is some husky farm-boy type, a .270 is way much for most kids. Even for the husky farm-boy, you should start him in the high-powers with a .223 (not for deer hunting, but to get him used to the sound with no kick). Progress from there to the likes of a .243, or .257 Roberts (or my all-time favorite deer cartrige, the venerable .250-3000 Savage).

    If you don't have the resources to do this progression, I'd look for a 6.5 x 55, or a 7x57. Light bullet loads in these cartriges are very kind to kids, and both can be loaded up later for deer and even elk. Let him decide when he thinks he needs the power of a .270. If you start him with a Roberts or a 7x57, he'll probably never want anything bigger, since these cartridges will teach him how to really shoot, and he won't need anything bigger.
     
  4. Lickskillet

    Lickskillet Land Of Big Sticks Member

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    I guess I should have shed more light on my situation. My son is somewhat of a husky guy and I am not after a deer gun for him. We have that. We are after an elk rifle for him. He has filled his deer tag the last couple years with my .243 and does fine with it. I dont feel comfortable using a .243 on elk unless its a head shot and I am NOT going to even go there right now. I am well aware of not needing to scare him so to speak and thats why I have this post. We need to take the next step up and that is why I am asking about the "kick factor" with 270 etc... I do appreciate you all wanting to make sure I dont ruin him so to speak..:laugh: Just wish I knew how much more kick a 270wsm has vs a 270 win
     
  5. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Ok! The .270 Winchester might be just the ticket for him. Start him out with it on light-recoil loads (handloads at minimum powder charge with a 100 grain bullet, or factory loads of the reduced recoil variety). The WSM will kick noticeably harder, not only as a result of the bullet leaving faster, but an equal addition as a result of the additional powder (many forget this). I am a .270 fan, and have shot the WSM quite a bit in friends' guns. I would describe the "felt" difference at 15-20%. If you've never played with the WSM or similar "fat, no taper" case cartridges, you will learn that a documented number of guns so chambered experience occasional feeding problems. (As one friend is dealing with in a quality gun.) Other owners experience no such malfunctions. Something to think about. Also consider availability. (Cartridges as well as brass if you handload). The little grocery store in Bomfook Egypt will almost without fail have a box of trusty .270 Winchesters on the shelf. The Egyptian store clerk will stare at you blankly if you ask for the "short mag". This can make or break an important hunt.

    I will join you in the avoidance of the debate of the .270 (as you did the .243) as adequate for elk. Lots of dead big bull elk will likewise not join us in that debate. (I even asked mine on the wall and got no reply). Similar silence came from more than one caribou and a Dall Sheep.
     
  6. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Cee-Dub is quick with the references! Now you have a number. Works out to about 11% more recoil with the WSM. (Just goes to show you how much of a wimp I am with recoil, "feeling" 15% or more.) Double ditto on his recommendation for the Limbsaver pad.

    Kudos as well with being "able to take" the recoil. I can take it. I just don't like it. I have fun inviting the .300 Win Mag guys out to the house to shoot off the bench. They can take it. They just can't shoot it quite as well as they can a little .250 Savage when I hand that to them to print a group next to the Mag group. It is a mystery that keeps repeating itself.

    And then there was the old guy who'd had a .300 Weatherby for 40 years and swore by it. I tried the same tactic with him, and very humbly found that there are a few that can not only take it, but can shoot it.
     
  7. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    Get a Browning Reactor pad, have a pocket sewn on a t-shirt or regular shirt, these make a BIG BIG difference in felt recoil. After I had heart surgery the Dr's said I should not shoot hi-power or it could tear the stints away. After some research I found out about the reactor pads, lot of surgery patients use them.
     
  8. svg4

    svg4 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    madcratebuilder, what is a reactor pad? I just am healing up from shoulder surgery and I am looking for something to help with recoil. Thanks
     
  9. rodell

    rodell Newcastle, WA Active Member

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    The Browning reactor pads are basically absorption material that you put in your vest, or, under it.

    You can find them in the Browning catalog.

    I've known some bird hunters who use them, I have no personal experience.

    Bob
     
  10. Lickskillet

    Lickskillet Land Of Big Sticks Member

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    Thanks for all the replies guys.. Just what I was wanting. Too funny about the the 243 and its capabilities. I too know first hand what it CAN do but it must be a well placed bullet. With a 14 year old that MAY not always be the what happens. ****, may not even happen with some adults..:laugh: I have thought about the ammo availability factor as well. I think I am going to stick with the .270 win. and as we all know, it has its own argument in big game killing abilities...

    Cheers:thumbup:
     
  11. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    Browning reactor pad.

    http://www.browning.com/products/ca..._id=309&type_id=012&value=A024&cattype=309012

    I just had this gal make me two shirts, one with the reactor pad pocket. Her prices are very reasonable.
    I should get them in a few days, I'll post back what i think about them.

    http://stores.ebay.com/Pine-Tree-Custom-Sportswear

    Contact her, she can get any kind of shirt you want.
     
  12. PBinWA

    PBinWA Clark County Well-Known Member

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    Get him a .300 win mag! Make a man out of that boy!

    Maybe a muzzle brake and a recoil pad too. ;)
     
  13. 2506

    2506 Seattle Well-Known Member

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    My first rifle was a lightweight Savage 99 in .308, with a steel buttplate. I killed four deer with it, the first being when I was 13. I never notice the recoil or the boom. The recoil tables I'm looking at show it to be on par with the .270 in terms of measured recoil. I'd go with .30 cal for elk.
     
  14. hntn&fshn

    hntn&fshn Boring Member

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    LS, we all have our opinions of course and I don't really think you can go wrong with the 270. It is a great all around caliber - especially for Oregon. However, you might consider the fact that your son may enjoy hunting enough where he wants to hunt a variety of animals in the future. If so, he may learn that there are slightly better choices for small game such as yotes, antigoats, sheep, deer, etc, and better choices for larger game like elk, moose etc. In other words, if you were to get him a 25-06 now, he would have a superior rifle for small game but could still use it for elk. Then when he gets older he could buy himself a 300 mag and he'd be set for super efficient OR rifle calibers and not have to shoot an "all around" caliber for both.
     
  15. Brandon

    Brandon Pacific Northwest New Member

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    I guess it just depends on your son, and how he reacts to recoil.
     
  16. Buano

    Buano NC Member

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    There are a few good replies above but most cartridge discussions center around whatever the speaker grew up with & this thread is no exception.

    In my humble opinion a .270 is the absolute minimum I would consider having a friend carry elk hunting. I don't think I would recommend less than a 7mm Rem for anyone that could handle it. I won't be caught with less than a .300 mag hunting elk and would rather carry a .340 Weatherby and might reach for a .375 H&H if I don't have to be prepared for 800 yard shots.

    Why do I favor the larger calibers for elk? I do so because I have seen that while a .270 or 7mm Rem with a good bullet will take out an elk's lungs on a broadside shot, I've seen where the same bullet & loading from a 7 mm mag that hit the shoulder didn't even break the leg of a big (very big) bull. While I always plan for & do my best to execute a perfect shot, I want enough gun that a "less than perfect" shot is still a clean kill.

    A .270 WSM will have the same felt recoil as a .300 mag with the same weight bullet. Bullet weight is the difference in felt recoil between these cartridges as the .270 wsm is normally loaded with 140-150 grain bullets while the .300 is most common with 180 grain elk bullets.

    Most teens can handle a .300 mag with no problem in hunting situations where adrenaline eliminates felt recoil. The problem is with bench work — where felt recoil teaches young hunters to flinch. The Limbsaver recoil pads are worth their weight in gold (even if they dissolve if left standing on the wrong type of carpeting in your gun-safe). Even more important with loads that kick is a LeadSled. It takes the pain out of shooting guns that go bang on both ends. Even though I was hunting with a 12 gauge long before it was legal and I'm comfortable with 3.5" turkey loads, on the bench I use a LeadSled.

    My 11-year-old daughter, skinny as she is, is comfortable with her .260 Rem because she learned to shoot well. She took a nice buck during last year's muzzle-loader season (as a 10-year-old) with my T/C Triumph with a maximum load. The buck was out of range for the muzzle-loader she was carrying so she used mine. That gun kicks more than a .300 wm. Kids, with their resiliency seem to handle recoil better than most middle-aged men I've worked with.
     
  17. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    "Bullet weight is the difference in felt recoil". Not entirely. Significant added recoil comes from significant added powder and expelled gasses. A cartridge that uses more powder than another to achieve similar velocity with an identical bullet weight will generate more recoil, and this factor is precisely what I referred to when I mentioned "many forget this". See? Many do.
     
  18. Buano

    Buano NC Member

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    Look at what I said, "A .270 WSM will have the same felt recoil as a .300 mag with the same weight bullet. Bullet weight is the difference in felt recoil between these cartridges as the .270 wsm is normally loaded with 140-150 grain bullets while the .300 is most common with 180 grain elk bullets."

    The reason what I said is true is because these two cartridges, although shaped differently, have almost exactly the same volume & powder charge. With the same volume & speed of gasses coming out the only appreciable difference is the weight of the bullet.
     
  19. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Sir,

    I will admit initial ignorance as to case capacity between the .270 WSM and the .300 Win. Magnum, and that ignorance was still in play when I made my statement (in general terms, and therefore a true statement as it stood) about increased powder contributing to recoil. Your reply caused me to dispense with my ignorance through research, and you deserve credit for that impetus.

    Per ChuckHawk's case capacity listing, the .270 WSM has a case capacity of 78.9 grains of water. The .300 Winchester Magnum has a case capacity of 90.4 grains. (Apples to Apples, since he uses WW cases for both readings).

    This is a 14% difference (contrary to your statement about nearly equivalent case capacity), and so now neither of us are ignorant about that. To me, this is "significant". I will allow that you may not consider it so, but I believe that consideration would be in the minority.

    Now: I will still profess ignorance as to comparable powder loads for say, a 150 grain bullet in each cartridge, but I would presume the .300 Win Mag will show a greater powder charge to achieve the same velocity as the .270 WSM, allowing for the greater pressure within the .270 WSM case due to its "significantly" less case capacity, and smaller bore size.

    Speer Manual #13 shows a load (maximum) for the .300 pushing a 150grain bullet at 3212 fps as 79.0 grains of H4831SC. I have no data for the .270 WSM, (hence the basis of my original ignorance) but believe 3200fps would be about max for it as well with the 150 grain bullet. I also believe that since the .300 load is a compressed charge, the .270 WSM charge to achieve the same velocity would be "significanty" less. Perhaps in the aforementioned 14% range.

    You have the experience that I lack in loading for the .270 WSM (or at least perhaps you have a book that can help). Actually, I expected the .300 to be able to toss that bullet faster. The best it does (in Speer at least) is 3300fps, but I don't think the .270 WSM can do that with a book load, and so I picked a max load from the .300 with a powder I know should work well in both, at a velocity I thought the .270 could match. (Trying to keep Apples and Apples.)

    It is my belief they both max out at about 3200fps with this powder with this bullet. It is also my belief the .300 will use more powder to do it. I DO NOT believe the resulting recoil would be in the 14% higher, but I do believe it will be more, and felt more. (For persons like me that believe lighter recoil means more accurate shooting, I believe this is "significant".)

    I will not denigrate the concept of the "short fat efficiency" of the .270WSM case, but multiple recent comparisons show it not to be quite as demonstrable as originally thought. Short Fat is good. I built a rifle on a wildcat .25 PPC (6mm PPC necked up), and found that I could match velocities of a moderate .250 Savage with much less case capacity in the PPC case. This made a believer out of me where Short Fat efficiency is concerned. I even believe now that Short Fat may work even better in smaller cases than the big ones.

    I professed my ignorance and lack of experience in deference to yours with these two calibers. I trust you will grant me credit for the effort to correct your statement about case capacity, enlightening us both. I also hope you can supply me with comparable powder charges to get that darn 150 going 3200 in each cartridge. If the powder charges are comparably equal, then my hat is off to you.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  20. ehunter

    ehunter Hilllsboro Oregon Member

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    I can't believe that people still think that the 270 is too light for elk. I have one friend that has killed 30 bulls with his using a 130 grain bullet. I love the 270 and can shoot it all day it will work on every thing in Oregon with no problem. More elk have fallen to the 270 and 06 than any other caliber. There is not a whole lot of gain going to the 270 WSM over a standard 270 out to 300 yards which is probably about the max range for most hunters. I have a 06 a 308 and 270 and I can shoot the 270 all day no problem. The 270 will be with him for a long time. Another option for a shorter rifle is the 308 it will kill elk just fine with a 165 bullet any of today's premium bullets will work well with any of the non magnumbs. Get a rifle that fits him and he will be happy.