Just what is this 'right to bear arms?'

[osterr1999]

coop, I am just saying that many of them believed that our rights we endowed by a our creator. I am not a religious person myself, but this is what was believed by the people who wrote what we are discussing. If you look at the writings of most of the founders, you will find references to this throughout. It is written on the Declaration of Independence.

 

[Father of four]

The right to protect yourself from bodily harm is something that is in all of us. Some believe it was made into us by God.

It is a God given right to protect yourself.

 

[Father of four]

O.K. Time to chime in. This "god given" phrase is pure baloney. Men fought and died for this right throughout history. Their blood, and our own, give us this right. Greater men than us saw what tyranny can be inflicted upon the weak and disarmed, and knowing this, insured that we would remain an armed populace to guarantee our rights as free men.

So where else would it come from when that right that was insured to us by those greater men is overturned with law,rules and regulations that take away that right?

 

[Father of four]

It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is.

HAHAHA..that will haunt him throughout history.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Historically, in England and elsewhere, the wearing of a sword was considered the mark of a free man. Slaves did not go about in public armed. The bearing of arms distinguished the free from the enslaved, the land owner from the tenant, the nobleman from the peasant. What our founders valued was more than a practicality. It was symbolism as well. I suspect that holds true for us today. We view ourselves as having the right to defend our persons and our property. Slaves don't view themselves that way. That being the case, who are the slaves in our society today?

 

[fidelity]

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It's funny you use that quote Osterr1999 - I actually have it on my wall next to my personal computer. The funny thing is, in all 4 years of intense Jeffersonian studies (I seriously mean it when I wrote "<3 Jefferson"), I've never seen that quote in original context. And, in fact, it's well alleged (like, google it) that Jefferson never spoke or wrote it.

Apart from that, I agree with you. Obviously private firearm ownership is a prerequisite for a militia. Though, separating the two (“militia” and “bear arms”) means that we spend most of our energy on the prerequisite and not the actual necessity. For example: if you’re currently in a Militia our government brands you as some sort of extremist. If we focus on the actual necessity of all citizens being in a militia, then the prerequisite of firearms ownership isn’t an issue, because it’s assumed.

 

[osterr1999]

Fidelity, possibly one of these might suit you better.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764)

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal to Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950] )

 

[VW_Factor]

So where else would it come from when that right that was insured to us by those greater men is overturned with law,rules and regulations that take away that right?

I myself am not particularly religious. Even God, as a "supreme being" did not give us any rights. We have rights because as an intelligent species, we realize and understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil.

We have these rights because we are brought into existence with them. No person or "supreme being" will ever be able to strip you of your rights.

Someday however, you might indeed have to fight back for them, as history has shown.

If you are religious and believe that you are born unto God's will and the rights that He has given you. So be it. I am not one to argue, we are all on the same page.

 

[fidelity]

Ironically Osterr1999, it doesn't appear you research either of those.

The first is explored here: Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...(Quotation) « Thomas Jefferson

The second is explored here: No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (Quotation) « Thomas Jefferson

The first was literally a cut-and-paste, and as an owner of a copy of Jefferson's commonplace book, I can assure he collected anything of fancy (including pretty leaves from trees), and there's no way to conclude that Beccaria's views on firearms had a major influence on him, other than his note in book "False idea of utility", which refers to the first line of the first paragraph, not necessarily firearms (the paragraph about firearms is in the second).

If the second quote was adopted as Jefferson wrote it, we would probably be wholly forbidden from firearms today.

You see, Jefferson was not a man of fighting, combat, or warfare and did not have a particular taste for firearms himself. He was an intellectual with a weak voice and many health problems. My favorite quote by Jefferson regarding firearms was to Peter Carr:

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. Never think of taking a book with you. The object of walking is to relax the mind. You should therefore not permit yourself even to think while you walk; but divert your attention by the objects surrounding you. Walking is the best possible exercise. Habituate yourself to walk very far." - Jefferson, 8/19/1785

 

[osterr1999]

That's funny because that's where I was going to go next. He was not a man of fighting, but owned firearms and was in favor of fighting to hold on to one's liberty if necessary.

As to the second quote, if adopted in it's original version makes no mention of limitations. It is also important to note that not everything one says can be proved to have been said by that person. There are Jefferson quotes that are attributed to him by others in their writing. You have to remember that there was no tv or voice recording, so writing that so and so said this was the only way for someone to record that someone said something back then. It is therefore important to note that we can not hold these things to the same level of proof as we do today.

 

[Father of four]

I myself am not particularly religious. Even God, as a "supreme being" did not give us any rights. I disagree.

We have rights because as an intelligent species, we realize and understand the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. That my friend is up for debate.

We have these rights because we are brought into existence with them. God Given.

No person or "supreme being" will ever be able to strip you of your rights. I disagree. God or a supreme being ( man on earth?) that can kill us can remove us and our rights at any moment.


Someday however, you might indeed have to fight back for them, as history has shown. I agree.

If you are religious and believe that you are born unto God's will and the rights that He has given you. So be it. I am not one to argue, we are all on the same page. We may agree on some things but we are not on the same page.

We all have many opinions. Thank you for yours VW.

My musing is in Bold.

 

[slimmer13]

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

I like this Jefferson Quote.

 

[coop44]

From my point of view the gun is but an extension of the "tooth and claw". For are we all not just intelligent animals defending our freedoms, homes, mates, offspring and territory? Violence can be done to us to relieve us of these, the desire for the power of being able to respond in kind is only understandable.

The philosiphies of the founding fathers were shaped by their education and religion, I do indeed respect their decisions as far as personal freedoms. Their inclusion of God in some of the language used in the constitution and other writings only reflects the conservitive positions of their constituants of the time, many of whom, if you recall, were considered too conservative to exist alongside the predominant religions in europe and england.

If you look back in history to the thirteenth century, at the Magna Carta, you will find the roots of many of the fundamental rights laid down by the founding fathers. This was the first to affirm individual freedom on a large scale, and possibly influenced to an extent by religious leaders, as evidenced by the "witnesses" being a number of Bishops and Abbots. Hence the inclusion of god in the wording.

Of course these are the ramblings of an unrepentant darwinian proponent, raised in a religious atmosphere. Educated in parochial schools by some of the best minds I have ever known. Taught critical thinking from an early age. If you find any of my musings offensive feel free to disregard them.

 

[VW_Factor]

We all have many opinions. Thank you for yours VW.

Your response is typical.

Your musing while appreciated, does not belong in a quote of my post. I would appreciate that edited. Thanks

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Father of Four, well said and you can add me as a +1

 

[Grunwald]

Interestingly enough all these reference to militia reminds me that if it not for the fact that we are still technically at war with North Korea the federal government would be in violation of the US Constitution. Don't recall of the top of my head right now, but there is a section that prohibits a standing army except in times of war.
Iraq and Afghanistan would not count in the strictest of meaning as no war was ever declared.

 

[deen_ad]

Bear= carry or use in any safe manner

Arms= any weapon a soldier can use to fight an army

Questions?

Fixed it for you
Arms=any weapon anyone can use to protect themselves or fight with

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Fixed it for you
Arms=any weapon anyone can use to protect themselves or fight with

Well, if you can fight an army with whatever it is I bet it makes a dandy self defense weapon against ruffians

 

[Grunwald]

you mean it's not a right that allows even the fattest of women to go sleeveless?

 

[rufus]

Eye bleach, pass the eye bleach...