Just in, new mass shooting in another school today, 14 possibly dead 2 children confirmed dead... :(

[EHJ]

Uvalde, Texas school shooting: Off-duty CBP agent saves students, daughter after 'help' text from teacher wife

This dude is stud...goes from getting a hair cut, gets a "HELP" from his wife, borrows barber's shotgun, blows past local LE standing in place and smokes the perp. Take note boys this is how it is done, those standing around need to be fired and ostracized from LE.

He rescued his kids and wife and assisted officers...?

Article mentions that LEO actually gave him cover...?

"While a CBP elite tactical team was planning to take out the shooter, Albarado coordinated with other officers to get as many children out as possible. He started in the area where his wife had said their daughter was hiding, rescuing other children and teachers along the way.
Two other armed officers covered him during the rescue and another two helped the children and teachers to safety, the newspaper reported."

Inquiring minds go, 'hmmmmm'.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Goes back to that age old question: if someone knew he had mental problems, how could they prevent him from buying a rifle and ammunition? Red flag law?

It's not a problem of preventing him from buying weapons. If he's determined you aren't going to do that anyway. It's a problem of where do we put people who are dangerously crazy. We dismantled the system that used to handle them and isolate them from the rest of society. It's the person that's the problem, not the inanimate object.

 

[tac]

Quick side point:
"I own guns so I can speak to this with authority" is the "black friend" defense. Seriously, don't lead with that. It's weak.

Re: mass casualty events by firearm: 330M people in our country, about that number of guns (or more) and millions of AR-platform rifles account for 300 deaths a year on average. Let's put some perspective into the platform itself. Double the number die from fists/feet. You don't need to take my word on it. Go look at the uniform data on the FBI's site.

Why does the U.S. have more mass casualty events? Can be a lot of factors; so far the rhetoric is on symptoms, not the problems. One of the major differences is that we lack the uniform healthcare support that many other countries have that are similarly industrialized. We also have, on average, a higher amount of broken homes. Symptoms of the problem. We would need to agree on the problem statement, and that's the biggest hump to get people over. You claim the data would show it - it would if it was truly collected. We can't collect it effectively because we don't have an effective system in place to accurately collect it. Garbage in/garbage out. But the eye test tells reasonable people that we have an increasing mental health crisis in the U.S.

Re: BoR - you're correct, the Amendments were an adjustment to the Declaration of Independence. Look a bit in the history books and you'll recall that the British empire tried to force citizens back under rule by attempting to confiscate their weapons. Cue revolutionary war. Cue the BoR, the first "government can't tell us what we can say," followed by, "and our guns will make sure the government doesn't force us into subjugation." Again, history is a thing. This was a, "now that we won, we need to document that $#!t."

Driving vs. firearm ownership. Driving isn't an enumerated right. Defense against govt is. See above "history is a thing" comment.

It's arguable the the Founders would actually see military weapons in the hands of citizenry, because of what drove the 2nd. And, at the time of the BoR, citizens could own the same weapons used in warfare. In fact many of them did.

You are seemingly leaning into the idea that "AR-platforms didn't exist then, so the rules aren't the same." Tut tut, be careful going down that rabbit hole. Social media, email, texting, and live streaming didn't exist then either. Does 1A apply less because of the technology? No. And if you take time to read some of the thought process in the Founders, they account for that.

At the end of the day, the US is uniquely different than so many other nations that the comparisons don't work and skew the conversation. The focus should be: how do we accurately identify the problem that we can agree on, and how do we go about solving is vs. treating symptoms?

I suspect one of the more aggressive mods will likely lock this thread now. I hope not, I don't think even your post pushes us into close mode. The schoolyard insults say more about you than anyone else. It also diminishes your ability to be seen as a reasonable adult trying to have a conversation. I would welcome an articulate conversation. My perspective is that if you disengage from hyperbole and emotional, there's a conversation we can have here.

The original Bill of Rights was put together in 1689. In England. Quote - Historical and legal ambiguity and nuance adhere not only to the circumstance of the 1689 Bill of Rights but also to its Article VII in which the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and the Commons, declared that their rights and liberties included "[t]hat the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions, and as allowed by Law."

Roman Catholicism was seen as extremely undesirable, and it was only 40 years after King Charles I had had his head chopped off in public in front of his
own Parliament building because he had tried treasonably to bring a Catholic army of French to his aid to fight his own subjects. Remember, too, that back in 1605, only the vigilance of the watch and an intercepted letter more or less prevented his father, James I/V and all his ministers and their families from being blown up by a Catholic conspiracy - the Gunpowder Plot of November 5th.

Even then it was an exclusive and conditional codicil.

It is my understanding that the American BoR was based on the English model and borrowed much from it, according the Benjamin Franklin. however, I'm straying very near into getting into your politics - something I promised I would not do.

Apologies.

 

[Aero Denezol]

II am a pragmatic, empathic and a realistic American.

Huh. I thought you were a troll

 

[ZigZagZeke]

We don't have access to anything close to the same weaponry.

Neither did the Viet Cong nor the Taliban. No helicopters, no A-10s, no F-18s. No navy, no tanks, no humvees. The militia in the US is about 100 million strong, and it's armed. You're seriously wrong on many counts. The 2A lives on and when it doesn't reality will take over.

 

[Kruel J]

Being condescending is to get your attention with or without it, the net result is the same.
Keep your hands off my guns!
Btw 2a scholars…. This was written as a result of citizens fighting against an oppressive government, Britain. So the mindset back then was a well regulated militia is the only way to be free against a federal standing army, domestic or abroad (because everyone had the same weaponry). Again the 2a primary justification was to prevent the United States from needing a standing army and the last time I checked that went out the window along time ago. Hell the national Guard was supposed to be a citizens militia how did that work out? The people lost, we are ruled by our military and militarized police. We don't have access to anything close to the same weaponry.
The 2a main design and purpose is outdated and as irrelevant as ball and musket rifles.
The end.

Posting this on a FIREARM forum.......maybe NWFA isn't the right place for you.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I agree, magically as if out of thin air a bunch of "mass" shootings happen near election time or when the anti's are pushing for more gun control.

Another probability question for you guys:

P(that there will be a mass shooting | there are upcoming elections or anti-gun laws being pushed) = 0.99999

And if reports are correct, what were federal marshals doing in a small rural town in Texas managing the event within minutes of reported shots fired? According to reports those marshals were handcuffing and pepper spraying parents who rushed the building to save their children.

 

[RVTECH]

maybe NWFA isn't the right place for you.

Hey I got told this on another forum recently!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I want to start by saying that the vast majority of posts on this thread have made me feel one of three emotions:

1. Horror & Disgust - Those who stated (or implied) that this atrocity was a hoax, a setup, or the result of some liberal conspiracy. This is a deeply disgusting and delusional denial of reality, and I won't waste a moment engaging with these folks (and neither should you).
   @Moderators Posts of this type are an obvious violation of Community Rule #3, and you are thus obligated to remove them immediately. Refusal to do so would put this forum in violation of its own Terms, and complicit in the dissemination & propagation of dangerous disinformation. Failure to take appropriate action would also put this forum in violation of the the terms of its platform provider.
2. Frustration - Those who immediately immediately jumped on the political defensive. Unlike the previous category, I can certainly relate to this response: After all, liberals and conservatives alike have learned this response both from political leadership, and from certain politically active, corporate-funded advocacy groups.
   However, I feel this is a knee-jerk reaction we should do our best to avoid. This "dig-your-heels-in" response (which is present on both sides of the isle) precludes meaningful discussion, and is also deeply disrespectful to those impacted by this tragedy.
3. Depression & Apathy - Those who accept the magnitude of these atrocities, but consider them to be unfortunate inevitabilities. Similar to the last category, I can identify with this reaction; However, it is a trained response that is demonstrably untrue.

Now I'll take a moment to describe my reaction to this atrocity:
I learned about this horrifying mass shooting in a particularly upsetting way: Yesterday, my 7-year-old, 2nd-grade daughter came home from school crying. She'd heard about the shooting from an older friend; she was terrified, upset, and she wanted answers.
Unfortunately, I'd been too wrapped up in my work to see the news, so I didn't have an age-appropriate narrative ready for her (if that's even a thing?!). Instead, I had no choice but to browse the news articles with my daughter on my lap, hugging me and sobbing. While I did my best to sanitize the story, I also felt a unique obligation to be honest: Unlike other atrocities, the victims of this atrocity were in her exact demographic, and were murdered in the exact setting in which she finds herself every day. Furthermore, I figured it was better that she learn these horrifying details from me, rather than from a friend at school who has access to a smartphone.
As our night progressed, my daughter would request updates whenever she caught me glancing at my phone. Interestingly enough, I found that the most effective form of reassurance I could provide was to translate each horrifying detail into something actionable; a means by which, in a similar situation, she could avoid the fate of the victims, and she would often prompt this advice by asking questions.
Here are some examples:

1. Run - If a bad guy points a gun at you: RUN. Do not cry, do not beg, just run. I explained that, as an experienced shooter, I can say with confidence that it's much more difficult to hit a moving target than a stationary target.
2. Hide - You can't shoot what you can't see; if possible, hide yourself.
3. Don't be a hero - One of the most heartbreaking details I learned was regarding Amerie Jo Garza, who was brutally executed while attempting to call the police (the shooter targeted her for this reason).
   While Amerie's actions were nothing short of heroic, my advice to my daughter was that, in a similar situation, she should prioritize her own safety over all else, because she is simply not equipped to do otherwise.

In addition to this sort of advice, I provided her with comfort by distancing her from this atrocity. I explained that this happened "Really far away...", which I demonstrated by checking the drive time from Portland to Uvalde, Texas (31 hours without traffic, if you're curious).
I also explained that, given the sheer magnitude of our national population, horrifying incidents like this remain statistically improbable, an argument which I attempted to support by looking up statistics on the leading causes of child death in our country. However, upon doing so, I was shocked to find that "Firearm-related injury" is #2 on that list, and so I quickly abandoned this argument.

In the end, I'm glad to say that I was able to sufficiently comfort my daughter: She slept through the night, woke up happy in the morning, and went to school without fear.
However, I was left with the grim realization that "Fear" was only half of the emotional cocktail my daughter was experiencing last night. The other half was "Horror".
Horror at the realization that "This is the type of world I live in...", and "This is something I need to be prepared for...". Horror that manifested itself in the "Why?!" questions ("WHY would someone do this?!", "WHY isn't anyone doing anything to stop this?!", etc.), and Horror that was amplified by my inability to answer these questions.
Now it goes without saying that I, like all of you, am familiar with this "Horror" to the point of tedium: At this point, it's like the deafening roar of some horrible white-noise machine that we all barely even notice.
However, as is often the case, re-experiencing the inception of this Horror through the tear-filled eyes of my daughter has re-awakened me to its nature. I DESPISE the fact that I was forced to have this conversation with my daughter; I DESPISE the fact that I will be forced to have this conversation again and again; and I DESPISE the fact that the answers to those "Why?!" questions often boil down to "Because this is the reality we have built for you."

Things brings me to my final point, which is also a summary of sorts:
It is my opinion that our broken political system has enabled both politicians, and specific political advocacy groups, to effectively suppress conversation around gun control among the EXACT group of people who should be leading this conversation! They have meticulously constructed a climate in which it is taboo for us to even MENTION the possibility of firearm restrictions, and where the only acceptable reaction to atrocities like this one is to preemptively deny the viability of any such restrictions.
I feel that, as responsible gun owners, we are the very exact people that should be leading these conversations. After all: We are the ones that purchase firearms, we are the ones that own firearms, and we are the ones that know how firearms should be used.

In that vein, I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to start a conversation, while fully realizing that what I'm about to say may constitute heresy in many of your minds, and may very well get me banned from this forum. However, I'm hoping beyond hope that there will be at least one or two folks who have the courage to echo my feelings, or to contribute their own ideas. I'm very interested to hear similar proposals from this highly knowledgable community of responsible gun owners; like I said, I feel that this is exactly where such conversations should start.

So here it is:
It is my feeling that semi-automatic, combat-style rifles with the ability to accommodate large ammunition capacities should not be readily available to the public. At the very least, these types of weapons should require additional licensing and training, analogous to the additional licensing required for operating semi-trucks. It is patently obvious that such restrictions would, at the very least, reduce the occurrence and magnitude of atrocities like these.

I will be taking a screenshot of this post immediately after I post it (just in case it is censored).

I commend how you handled this with your daughter. My youngest are 7 and 11 so I appreciate your situation.

That said, it is not the objects in this world that are the problem. It's not guns or knives, or unsecured school buildings. The problem is the people, the crazy ones who are a danger to themselves and the general public. We try to legislate boundaries behind which we can hide from the dangerously mentally ill. We try to legislate gun availability, or secure buildings, or any number of other "solutions" that will never work as long as dangerously mentally ill people are allowed to roam the streets without treatment. It's the elephant in the room that we pretend isn't there. We don't want to have to decide who is dangerous and needs involuntary confinement and treatment. We don't want that responsibility. We don't want that expense. We'd rather see dozens of children shot to pieces, blown up, stabbed, or killed as a result of arson than to have to admit that we were wrong 50 years ago when we dismantled our public mental health treatment system.

Objects have no morality, no will of their own. The actors who wield them determine the morality of their use. When those actors are dangerously crazy we have to act. The tide is turning now. More and more I'm hearing that mental health is the real problem. How many more kids have to die before we act on that belief?

 

[Ura-Ki]

Firearms RELATED................................

Copied and pasted from Facebook,



So, the story is that an unemployed 18 year old cross dresser living with his grandmother had 2 BRAND NEW Daniel Defense AR15 rifles, worth almost $5000, plus ammo, plus optics. Add to that a $70,000 f250 pickup and body armor. Seems like he may have had some help?? I know these Rifles are hard to come by and a favorite of the FEDS!! Something stinks here! Sorry, these things give me pause folks. Only a fool would not question this.

Truth!
Especially in that community, who has that kind of money, and yet lives in those conditions, and sends their kids to those schools!

 

[nammac]

Firearms RELATED................................

Copied and pasted from Facebook,



So, the story is that an unemployed 18 year old cross dresser living with his grandmother had 2 BRAND NEW Daniel Defense AR15 rifles, worth almost $5000, plus ammo, plus optics. Add to that a $70,000 f250 pickup and body armor. Seems like he may have had some help?? I know these Rifles are hard to come by and a favorite of the FEDS!! Something stinks here! Sorry, these things give me pause folks. Only a fool would not question this.

Add to that parents being handcuffed when they want to go into the school and get their kids….

Law enforcement doesn't breech the room for nearly an hour…

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but something here stinks to the high heavens…

And here they come, now they want law abiding citizen to be further repressed in their Second Amendment Rights.

That effort and monies should be poured into mental health, that's the real health crisis in America. Hey elected politicians, it's time to do something about the epidemic of mental health issues in America!!!!

 

[Jay Walk]

Please quit cutting and pasting from FaceBook.
You know who you are

 

[rdb241]

Please quit cutting and pasting from FaceBook.
You know who you are

What is your exact issue?

 

[EHJ]

Add to that parents being handcuffed when they want to go into the school and get their kids….

Law enforcement doesn't breech the room for nearly an hour…

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but something here stinks to the high heavens…

This stinks even more...

Just in, new mass shooting in another school today, 14 possibly dead 2 children confirmed dead... :(

Uvalde, Texas school shooting: Off-duty CBP agent saves students, daughter after 'help' text from teacher wife This dude is stud...goes from getting a hair cut, gets a "HELP" from his wife, borrows barber's shotgun, blows past local LE standing in place and smokes the perp. Take note boys this...

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[Will_White]

Firearms RELATED................................

Copied and pasted from Facebook,



So, the story is that an unemployed 18 year old cross dresser living with his grandmother had 2 BRAND NEW Daniel Defense AR15 rifles, worth almost $5000, plus ammo, plus optics. Add to that a $70,000 f250 pickup and body armor. Seems like he may have had some help?? I know these Rifles are hard to come by and a favorite of the FEDS!! Something stinks here! Sorry, these things give me pause folks. Only a fool would not question this.

He wasn't a cross dresser, Only one of the rifles was a DD, the pickup was stolen (his grandmothers?), and he didn't have any body armor just a carrier.

Edit and he had job flipping burgers, minimum wage -0 expenses adds up over time.

 

[RVTECH]

the pickup was stolen (his grandmothers?)

I read in one article it was in fact hers.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

I read in one article it was in fact hers.

Right, he stole it from his grandmother

 

[Will_White]

This stinks even more...

Just in, new mass shooting in another school today, 14 possibly dead 2 children confirmed dead... :(

Uvalde, Texas school shooting: Off-duty CBP agent saves students, daughter after 'help' text from teacher wife This dude is stud...goes from getting a hair cut, gets a "HELP" from his wife, borrows barber's shotgun, blows past local LE standing in place and smokes the perp. Take note boys this...

www.northwestfirearms.com

Sounds like a Dad doing Dad bubblegum, while the other police who were already there weren't doing their jobs he went in helped evacuate the rest of the school starting with his number 1 and 2.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

That effort and monies should be poured into mental health, that's the real health crisis in America. Hey elected politicians, it's time to do something about the epidemic of mental health issues in America!!!!

#AgedLikeFineMilk

Abbott calls Texas school shooting a mental health issue but cut state spending for it

While such programs require more funding, they wouldn't eliminate the need for gun control, experts said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[rdb241]

He wasn't a cross dresser, Only one of the rifles was a DD, the pickup was stolen (his grandmothers?), and he didn't have any body armor just a carrier.

He was a cross dresser. Plenty of pics online.........