Just in, new mass shooting in another school today, 14 possibly dead 2 children confirmed dead... :(

[Knobgoblin]

Commonly touted policies are ill-suited to stopping mass shooters

Commonly Touted Policies Are Ill-Suited to Stopping Mass Shooters

"In New York," former Gov. Andrew Cuomo bragged on Sunday, "we passed the best [gun control] laws in the nation."…

reason.com

Nobody likes facts. They are just so boring.
Great article that 90% of the idiots who vote in this country wouldn't bother reading.

 

[3MTA3]

Ask the Big Guy!

remember, the Big Guy only gets 10% of the, um, the thing...

 

[cosmos mariner]

Thin blue line my bubblegum

 

[RobMa]

 

[3MTA3]

MUST READ thread about mass shooting misconceptions - several parts

https://twitter.com/x/status/1529577076419923968

 

[cosmos mariner]

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

A mass shooting at a Texas elementary school left 19 children and two adults dead, adding to a gruesome series of mass killings in America.

apnews.com

Thought these dudes were supposed to be the tough guys that protected us? Let's argue about gun laws instead of talking about how cowards are acting like we should treat them like heroes for completing a application and job interview.

 

[L84Cabo]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how he was able to kill 21 people with the police already there and after him. That certainly could be an indication that he was wearing armor.

Reports are now starting to come out that the dude was barricaded in a classroom for almost an hour before police made entry.

And I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

We know that engaging active shooters is absolutely paramount to minimizing loss of life. This dude had cops in tow when he crashed. And there appears to have been some rounds exchanged initially. But why did it take almost an hour for the police to make entry? Certainly they would have heard the shooter executing students inside the classroom...wouldn't they?

I really hope I'm wrong on this but this is starting to look like Parkland where some cops sat outside until braver cops showed up to make entry. I REALLY hope that isn't what happened.

Uvalde school shooter was in school for up to an hour before law enforcement broke into room where he was barricaded and killed him | CNN

The gunman who killed 19 students and two teachers at a Texas elementary school Tuesday was on the premises for up to an hour before law enforcement forcibly entered a classroom and killed him, officials said Wednesday.

www.cnn.com

valde, TexasCNN —
The gunman who killed 19 students and two teachers at a Texas elementary school Tuesday was on the premises for up to an hour before law enforcement forcibly entered a classroom and killed him, officials said Wednesday.

 

[L84Cabo]

First off: I appreciate both of your responses, in that, at the very least, you are responding to the essence of my proposal (rather than demonizing or ostracizing me outright). I mean this very sincerely: I think the most important point I'm trying to make is that, as conservative gun owners, we should do what we can to foster a culture where productive conversations about firearm restrictions can actually occur, and both your responses reflect a willingness to do so.
However, I'll point out that, in this case, it has been established that the shooter legally purchased two semi-automatic rifles on his 18th birthday; soon after that, he legally purchased the ammunition used in the assault online. The story with the Buffalo Mass. shooter is similar: Both the ammunition and the firearm were purchased legally, soon before the shooting occurred.
Therefore, given that both these shootings exclusively involved guns and ammunition purchased legally, how can we not conclude that the current regulations are inadequate, and that additional restrictions could have helped avoid these horrific tragedies?
Now, it could be the case that you accept the inadequacies of our current regulations, but you object to my proposal. In that case, I'd ask you: What firearm restrictions might you propose?

To be frank, I find it shocking that any knowledgable firearm owner could dispute the fact that these types of firearms would result in a higher casualty count. I'm even more blown away by your counter-assertion, which I highlighted above. The statement that "...type and capacity, or even caliber make ZERO difference, a Firearm is a Firearm..." is so wildly irrational and ridiculous that I'm not even sure how to respond to such a claim.
I'm curious to hear from other folks: Regardless of your thoughts and opinions regarding firearm laws & restrictions, can we all agree that certain firearms (specifically these types of rifles) are capable of generating significantly larger casualty numbers in the context of a mass shooting? Is that point really up for debate?!

The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 people and injured 17...with two handguns...a 9mm and a .22.

Now obviously a round from a 5.56/.223 is GENERALLY going to cause more physical damage than a .22.

But when you have a contained group of unarmed victims who can't go anywhere and can't fight back, the type of gun and caliber is largely irrelevant. All you need is a little bit of time to rack up a high body count. I would also argue that mag capacity is also largely irrelevant as long as the shooter has a reserve of spare mags.

This is why it is so critical that responding officers engage the shooter as quickly as possible. Time is the real enemy here...not caliber, type of weapon, or mag capacity. The people who study these type of things have actually come up with a fairly accurate estimate for body count, as gory as that is. I want to say the number was 6-8 dead for each minute it takes the police to respond and engage...but don't quote me on that as it was a fair while back and I'm not sure if I'm remembering the number correctly.

 

[ramrod52]

I want to start by saying that the vast majority of posts on this thread have made me feel one of three emotions:

1. Horror & Disgust - Those who stated (or implied) that this atrocity was a hoax, a setup, or the result of some liberal conspiracy. This is a deeply disgusting and delusional denial of reality, and I won't waste a moment engaging with these folks (and neither should you).
   @Moderators Posts of this type are an obvious violation of Community Rule #3, and you are thus obligated to remove them immediately. Refusal to do so would put this forum in violation of its own Terms, and complicit in the dissemination & propagation of dangerous disinformation. Failure to take appropriate action would also put this forum in violation of the the terms of its platform provider.
2. Frustration - Those who immediately immediately jumped on the political defensive. Unlike the previous category, I can certainly relate to this response: After all, liberals and conservatives alike have learned this response both from political leadership, and from certain politically active, corporate-funded advocacy groups.
   However, I feel this is a knee-jerk reaction we should do our best to avoid. This "dig-your-heels-in" response (which is present on both sides of the isle) precludes meaningful discussion, and is also deeply disrespectful to those impacted by this tragedy.
3. Depression & Apathy - Those who accept the magnitude of these atrocities, but consider them to be unfortunate inevitabilities. Similar to the last category, I can identify with this reaction; However, it is a trained response that is demonstrably untrue.

Now I'll take a moment to describe my reaction to this atrocity:
I learned about this horrifying mass shooting in a particularly upsetting way: Yesterday, my 7-year-old, 2nd-grade daughter came home from school crying. She'd heard about the shooting from an older friend; she was terrified, upset, and she wanted answers.
Unfortunately, I'd been too wrapped up in my work to see the news, so I didn't have an age-appropriate narrative ready for her (if that's even a thing?!). Instead, I had no choice but to browse the news articles with my daughter on my lap, hugging me and sobbing. While I did my best to sanitize the story, I also felt a unique obligation to be honest: Unlike other atrocities, the victims of this atrocity were in her exact demographic, and were murdered in the exact setting in which she finds herself every day. Furthermore, I figured it was better that she learn these horrifying details from me, rather than from a friend at school who has access to a smartphone.
As our night progressed, my daughter would request updates whenever she caught me glancing at my phone. Interestingly enough, I found that the most effective form of reassurance I could provide was to translate each horrifying detail into something actionable; a means by which, in a similar situation, she could avoid the fate of the victims, and she would often prompt this advice by asking questions.
Here are some examples:

1. Run - If a bad guy points a gun at you: RUN. Do not cry, do not beg, just run. I explained that, as an experienced shooter, I can say with confidence that it's much more difficult to hit a moving target than a stationary target.
2. Hide - You can't shoot what you can't see; if possible, hide yourself.
3. Don't be a hero - One of the most heartbreaking details I learned was regarding Amerie Jo Garza, who was brutally executed while attempting to call the police (the shooter targeted her for this reason).
   While Amerie's actions were nothing short of heroic, my advice to my daughter was that, in a similar situation, she should prioritize her own safety over all else, because she is simply not equipped to do otherwise.

In addition to this sort of advice, I provided her with comfort by distancing her from this atrocity. I explained that this happened "Really far away...", which I demonstrated by checking the drive time from Portland to Uvalde, Texas (31 hours without traffic, if you're curious).
I also explained that, given the sheer magnitude of our national population, horrifying incidents like this remain statistically improbable, an argument which I attempted to support by looking up statistics on the leading causes of child death in our country. However, upon doing so, I was shocked to find that "Firearm-related injury" is #2 on that list, and so I quickly abandoned this argument.

In the end, I'm glad to say that I was able to sufficiently comfort my daughter: She slept through the night, woke up happy in the morning, and went to school without fear.
However, I was left with the grim realization that "Fear" was only half of the emotional cocktail my daughter was experiencing last night. The other half was "Horror".
Horror at the realization that "This is the type of world I live in...", and "This is something I need to be prepared for...". Horror that manifested itself in the "Why?!" questions ("WHY would someone do this?!", "WHY isn't anyone doing anything to stop this?!", etc.), and Horror that was amplified by my inability to answer these questions.
Now it goes without saying that I, like all of you, am familiar with this "Horror" to the point of tedium: At this point, it's like the deafening roar of some horrible white-noise machine that we all barely even notice.
However, as is often the case, re-experiencing the inception of this Horror through the tear-filled eyes of my daughter has re-awakened me to its nature. I DESPISE the fact that I was forced to have this conversation with my daughter; I DESPISE the fact that I will be forced to have this conversation again and again; and I DESPISE the fact that the answers to those "Why?!" questions often boil down to "Because this is the reality we have built for you."

Things brings me to my final point, which is also a summary of sorts:
It is my opinion that our broken political system has enabled both politicians, and specific political advocacy groups, to effectively suppress conversation around gun control among the EXACT group of people who should be leading this conversation! They have meticulously constructed a climate in which it is taboo for us to even MENTION the possibility of firearm restrictions, and where the only acceptable reaction to atrocities like this one is to preemptively deny the viability of any such restrictions.
I feel that, as responsible gun owners, we are the very exact people that should be leading these conversations. After all: We are the ones that purchase firearms, we are the ones that own firearms, and we are the ones that know how firearms should be used.

In that vein, I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to start a conversation, while fully realizing that what I'm about to say may constitute heresy in many of your minds, and may very well get me banned from this forum. However, I'm hoping beyond hope that there will be at least one or two folks who have the courage to echo my feelings, or to contribute their own ideas. I'm very interested to hear similar proposals from this highly knowledgable community of responsible gun owners; like I said, I feel that this is exactly where such conversations should start.

So here it is:
It is my feeling that semi-automatic, combat-style rifles with the ability to accommodate large ammunition capacities should not be readily available to the public. At the very least, these types of weapons should require additional licensing and training, analogous to the additional licensing required for operating semi-trucks. It is patently obvious that such restrictions would, at the very least, reduce the occurrence and magnitude of atrocities like these.

I will be taking a screenshot of this post immediately after I post it (just in case it is censored).

Thank you for your clear eyed perspective and a willingness to suggest unpopular, but arguable, worthwhile solutions.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I just heard that the Grandmother was evicting the murders Mother from a house that the Grandmother owned.

The murderer did not have a Father figure in his life.

 

[cosmos mariner]

Cops couldn't get in cuz the kid locked the door? All police departments, even those in Mayberry, have been getting the outdated armor and equipment from our endless war in the sandbox for the past 20+ years and none of them could stop a boy or open a school house door?

This is my last post on this. None of the emotions or thoughtsI have writhing inside me will translate over a social media site adequately.

Onlookers urged police to charge into Texas school

A mass shooting at a Texas elementary school left 19 children and two adults dead, adding to a gruesome series of mass killings in America.

apnews.com

 

[Member 3687]

Reports are now starting to come out that the dude was barricaded in a classroom for almost an hour before police made entry.

As much as I hate to say it but the police are not required to put their lives in any kind of danger for you or your kids. That has been taken to court several time all ready.

Now i will say some will but in reality you are on your own to fend for your self.

 

[Cavedweller]

The murderer did not have a Father figure in his life.

And mom was a drug abuser.

Not a lot of parenting going on.

 

[cosmos mariner]

As much as I hate to say it but the police are not required to put their lives in any kind of danger for you or your kids. That has been taken to court several time all ready.

Now i will say some will but in reality you are on your own to fend for your

Shoot. The police wouldn't be the ones to stop an 18 year old from killing a bunch of kids half his age I guess. Maybe we can ask the cook at the school to open the door and see what she can do.

 

[edzz]

I blame the shooter, not the tool.
I do not believe that more gun laws would prevent these heinous acts.
I also don't believe that limiting access to affordable fuel and fertilizer is the way to prevent bombings.
Go Brandon.


Andy, my thoughts are with you. I do not envy the tasks your having to deal with, stay strong.

Ed

 

[bkroger86]

As much as I hate to say it but the police are not required to put their lives in any kind of danger for you or your kids. That has been taken to court several time all ready.

Now i will say some will but in reality you are on your own to fend for your self.

Being a police officer (or firefighter, or soldier) is a risky job by default. They already put their lives at risk signing up for the job. Not charging into a turkey shoot or a burning building is risk management, not risk abatement.

Uvalde is a small town with local yokel cops. They needed a SWAT team for this shooter, and ended up getting help from the Feds.

 

[bkroger86]

And mom was a drug abuser.

Not a lot of parenting going on.

People here might not agree with me, but I don't understand the drive for Republicans to take away the right of these women to get an abortion. Sounds like we're just adding fuel to a fire 18 years from now.

 

[DivCurlGrad72]

So here it is:
It is my feeling that semi-automatic, combat-style rifles with the ability to accommodate large ammunition capacities should not be readily available to the public.

Forget it, buddy. Governments have killed an estimated 200 million people to date. Some of the most advanced countries this world has seen, historically Germany, Russia, currently China. Crime and criminals abound, as they always have. I can promise you I will never disarm in the way you suggest just because of the actions of a couple of idiotic teenagers.

 

[Member 3687]

Maybe we can ask the cook at the school to open the door and see what she can do.

That is why many folks push to Arm the teachers or office staff. I am for it and there are many groups that do offer free training and even equipment for them to do so.

Or we could just ban guns you know like we did with drugs and we even went as far as creating an amendment to ban Alcohol and it worked out so well it caused a crime wave and the 1934 NFA act before it was repealed.

Not one of those laws on the books has slowed down any crime in my opinion so until you can change the hearts and minds of folks to do good and not evil it will continue.

 

[raftman]

Bump stocks, ghost guns, high capacity, assault type. None of these really matter. I will even play devil's advocate for a moment . Wave a magic wand and tonight , every self loading firearm and magazine over 10 rounds vanishes forever. All plans and knowledge of the same objects and materials are gone as well. But the addiction to notoriety and knowledge that a random mass killing is a sure ticket to that fame remains? In less than 5 years we would see homemade truck bombs and rampant arson . Possibly even sword and knife attacks.
Lack of access to a tool will just lead to substitute tools being used.

This doesn't even really need to be hypothetical. For example in China (where any private gun ownership is virtually nonexistent) they have mass stabbings... there was one with 29 people killed.