Junk Gun Shootout/Crappy Caliber Comparison

[coosbaycreep]

Shortly after I got done talking trash about .25acp in the other thread, I decided to go ahead and go out and do some testing myself since it wasn't raining yet.

ammo from left to right: 22lr, .25acp, .32acp (with a .303-.32acp chamber adapter behind it), 9mm, 44mag, and a 500S&W with a 700gr bullet
http://img706.imageshack.us/i/crapforsale166.jpg/

and the guns I took out today:FIE titan .25, Tec-dc9, jennings J22, S&W 629 5"
http://img691.imageshack.us/i/crapforsale167.jpg/

Not pictured is a no.5 Enfield and a keltec .32
I didn't take the .500 with me, mainly because I don't have enough 2x4s sitting around to stop a .500.

The first thing I did was chronograph all of them:
Jennings .22lr with remington 36gr HP (golden bullet)=699fps, 39ft lbs

keltec .32 with winchester 71gr fmj=788fps, 98ft lbs

enfield with .32 adapter using winchester 71gr fmj=353fps, 20ft lbs (Yes, that's 353fps, not 1,353fps. Apparently this round doesn't have enough power to overcome the friction of a longer barrel or something, and actually loses velocity. I'm glad I didn't try these in the longer barreled enfield I had).

Titan .25 with remington 50gr fmj=681fps, 52ft lbs

tec-9 with winchester 115gr fmj=1,207fps, 372ft lbs

.44mag with a 240gr nosler JHP (and 7.2gr red dot)=926fps, 457ft lbs (this is an incredibly light load too BTW)

I was shocked by how slow the .22 was out of the pistol, and how poorly the .32 did out of the rifle, since I expected it to gain velocity, instead of losing over half of the velocity it had out of the keltec.

Next up I tested penetration. The only thing I took with me to test penetration though was 4 2x4s, so the results from this isn't very exciting either.

The .22lr went completely through 1 2x4 and was buried in the second, with the bottom of the bullet flush with the 2x4.

The .25acp had almost exactly the same penetration as the .22, and was just a little ways into the second 2x4.

.32acp from the keltec was stuck between the second and third 2x4, or basically twice as much penetration as the .22 or .25.

.32 from the enfield made a dent about 3/8" deep on the front of the first 2x4.

9mm easily went through all 4 2x4s.

I fired 4 rounds with the .44. Three of the rounds went through all 4 2x4s, but one of them was stuck about half way into the fourth one. Keep in mind that this load is closer to .44special than .44mag though. I'm fairly certain that full house loads will go through quite a bit of lumber.

After all this, I didn't gain any respect for .25acp, but I lost some respect for .22lr, as I had once considered getting a S&W 317PD for backpacking. I still wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of any of these either though, but there is a pretty big difference between .25 and .32 as far as penetration goes (although 2x4s aren't exactly human flesh either).

I didn't do any accuracy testing really, just some plinking at pop cans afterward. All 3 of the pocket pistols were reasonably accurate, and none had any malfunctions. The 629 is always accurate. The tec-9 was actually functioning well and hitting where I aimed it today too, which is a rarity. The enfield on the other hand, didn't do so good. It seemed to shoot way low, and after about 8 rounds through it today, I got a squib. This was actually the first squib I've had, but it was easy enough to dislodge with a cleaning rod after I got home.

The whole novelty of the .303/.32acp chamber adapter has worn off now. 303british ammo isn't cheap to shoot, but I'm not real fond of paying $18 a box for .32 ammo to shoot in it when it's only going 350fps or getting stuck in the barrel.

I also now know that if I ever get attacked by a 2x4, that even a .22lr junk gun will shoot through one...but not much more.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with my two new junk guns.

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[matt_w]

The 9mm went through all the boards? I guess I didn't realize it could do that. No suprise (for me at least) about the 22LR though.

 

[Phillyfan]

Thanks, Creep. That was fun/interesting. I would not have bet that the 9mm would have penitrated that far either.

 

[Spad]

Thanks for the results to your amateur tests, not being critical, enjoyed the results. The penetration on the 9mm is not suprising. Lot of people don't give the 9mm the respect tha it deserves. That .44 loading with the hollow point probably shortened it's penetration. .25 has always been a dog. Personally I wouldn't want to be shot with any of them. Spad

 

[trainsktg]

What a neat test, thanks for posting.

Regarding the J22...with such a short barrel, the velocity isn't surprising. Mine, which I got nearly 30 years ago, had a tendency to stovepipe the ejected case until I figured out that one has to hold the pistol firmly (not limp-wristed) and use good ammo, like the minimags. I don't shoot it much, maybe 10 rounds every 10 years, but being my first handgun its hard to just let it go.

Keith

 

[ORBrit]

I was shooting a steel plate today and 9mm was barely denting 3/8" steel.
A 12 gauge slug went clean through!
Shooting both from 25 yards.

 

[matt_w]

I've been thinking about the 9mm bullet result all day! How long is the barrel of a tech 9? Maybe that's why it penetrated so deep?

 

[coosbaycreep]

I think the tec has a 3.5" or 4" barrel, but not sure. It's a lot shorter than you'd think it is, considering how big the gun is.

Of all the commonly carried handgun calibers, 9mm is suppose to out penetrate pretty much all of them with the exception of 7.62x25, and maybe .357 and .357sig. I always thought 9mm was suppose to be weak and crappy because of all the .45 lovers who have badmouthed it for decades in magazines and whatnot, but after I finally got one, I think it's probably the most efficient handgun caliber there is when you consider it's size and cost.

I'd like to eventually test all of these guns against steel too, but unless I find an old car body somewhere, I can't hit stuff far enough away with the pocket pistols to be a safe distance in case of ricochets.

 

[mpmarty]

Yup FMJ 9mm X 19 penetrates to beat all get out. To make them effective defense rounds everyone has gone to expanding hollow point type bullets. No more penetration. Like most stuff it's a trade off and ya pays yr money and takes yr choice My choice is a bigger gun with a bigger bullet. 10mm is a fine defense round and 45acp is probably better, I don't know.:huh:

 

[matt_w]

Do you have a .40s&w you could test out? I always heard .40 and 9mm were close on penetration.

 

[coosbaycreep]

Sorry, I don't have a .40 at the moment. I think 9mm would still out penetrate a .40 against wood/metal etc though, not so sure about flesh however.

 

[matt_w]

I know that 9mm is supposed to out penetrate .40, but I heard .40 was close. They are both supposed to be better than .45 though.

 

[Decker]

I'm not all that knowledgeable but I'd say that few things will make good cover against an AK =)

-D

 

[coosbaycreep]

7.62x39mm will penetrate a lot better than most people give it credit for. I've shot up old cars with an SKS, and it will punch through aluminum engine blocks, shoot through both doors, through brake rotors (which are really thick), etc. I consider that caliber to be pretty much perfect for 99% of all SHTF situations when weight, cost, and recoil are factored in.

I've done penetration tests between various 7.62x39mm rounds, .30-06, and .300WM. I can't remember all the results specifically, but I do remember that .300wm is fairly impressive.

Copper plated buckshot will usually do a little a better against steel, but the plain lead stuff is crap for the most part.

I'll eventually do some rifle tests and post them on here. I've got some black tip AP 30-06, and some old school AP 8mm mauser that I believe is from WWII. I'm basically just waiting to find a cheap mauser before I shoot it.

 

[matt_w]

I used to have a video that was made by the US Military, where they shot a bunch of different rounds into different types of materials/buildings and measured how they did. I remember 7.62x39 was easily penetrating into brick buildings and hitting the dummies on the other side. The grenade tests in a drywall house were also pretty good. I'll have to see if I can track it down again.

 

[larryh1108]

I thought the .22LR High Velocity (HV) rounds like the minimag and CCI Stinger had upwards to 1250 fps. The results you posted seem way off even of they aren't HV. Were they subsonic rounds??

 

[litesong]

Shortly after I got done talking trash about .25acp in the other thread........Titan .25 with remington 50gr fmj=681fps, 52ft lbs
The .22lr went completely through 1 2x4 and was buried in the second, with the bottom of the bullet flush with the 2x4.
The .25acp had almost exactly the same penetration as the .22, and was just a little ways into the second 2x4.
.32acp from the keltec was stuck between the second and third 2x4, or basically twice as much penetration as the .22 or .25.
After all this, I didn't gain any respect for .25acp..... I still wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of any of these either though, but there is a pretty big difference between .25 and .32 as far as penetration goes
All in all, I'm pretty happy with my two new junk guns.

My quotes in the 25acp thread are close to your observations about the 50 footpounds of energy of factory 25 acp. Again my quotes from the 25 acp thread about handloading the 25 acp show that the 25 acp, when driven to 900 feet/sec & 90 footpounds of energy becomes a different cartridge. My own long time distant observations indicate that the hot handloaded 25 acp penetrates through two 2X4's. I can't remember if the 25 acp penetrated into the third board or not. But the hot handloaded 25 acp has similar penetration to the 32 acp. Here is my post from the 25 acp thread:

Factory loads are loaded sometimes to less than 50fpe in deference to 'many of the junk 25 autos'. Many people consider the 25 auto Raven to be junk. Handloaders have developed superb (very hot) loads for the 25 ACP, tho. My initial low power development handloads for my two new Raven 25 autos were inaccurate, unreliable & as many here have said, weak-kneed. As I approached max. loads, my Ravens became progressively accurate, very reliable & powerful. The Ravens performed so well, I (& other handloaders) went past so called max loads. Both my Ravens loved the hot loads that approach 90+fpe. Unique powder worked superbly, tho Bullseye was not good.

I used to shoot the Beeman pellet guns with muzzle velocities of 800 f/s. Always thought, if I accidently shot someone in the neck with a pellet, the person would be in trouble (& not just if a vein was hit). The hot loaded 25 ACP has almost 7 times the pellet gun's energy! Two 25ACP shots to the face & neck would be like 13 or 14 pellets from the air rifle. Any shooting victim would be in very bad condition or no condition at all because they would be dead. Few 90 fpe bullets will bounce off anyone's skull. The one's that might, will transfer a lot of death dealing energy to the skull. With both my Ravens in my pocket, I felt.....protected. The guys at the gravel pits always wanted to know about my Ravens when they heard their authoritative barks.

Accuracy----I often set up 22 caliber empties & tho I wasn't a great offhand shot, at 5 yards distance, I could hit the empties about half the time, often sending them spinning & whirring off into the distance.

 

[Spad]

Litesong, I have a friend who was an undercover officer and involved in a few unpleasant encounters (shoot-outs) he and his partner used to carry .25's as backup, witnessed some .25 shootings. They both threw thier .25's away. This person was very familiar with hand loads. If you are happy flying in the face of all stats concerning the .25 ACP, that is your choice. Nuff said. Spad

 

[Michael]

I remember sighting in my SKS years ago, and the first shot accidentally hit the target stand, which was made of 3/16" thick angle iron at a 45° angle (like this ^). I hit it exactly halfway up it, and it penetrated both sides like they were butter.

Has anyone done any ballistic gelatin testing?

 

[motoman98]

Just for fun, it's all fun, right?
Get ahold of a surplus CZ-52, they can be fairly cheap.
Investigate that 7.62x25.
Talk about penetration, and it's an interesting round!