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It's not what you say but how you say it.

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Just Jim, Feb 18, 2015.

  1. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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  2. PiratePast40

    PiratePast40 Willamette Valley Well-Known Member

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    Many of us have been saying the same thing for quite some time. As an example, not sure why womans' rights groups aren't backing laws that get rid of the requirement to retreat from an attack before fighting back.
     
  3. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    I believe the only way to get our rights secure is to get more people owning guns. I think it's going to take the fear that is produced by the gun haters changed to self reliance and more gun lovers. I don't believe you are going to change anything by trying to get people to like gun owners but people will vote for something that helps protect their life.
     
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  4. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    This is exactly what I mean by finding allies in unlikely places :)
     
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  5. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Ya it's the fighters for our rights that will make a difference, not those who go along to get along.:D
     
  6. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I agree, the defense of 2nd amendment rights should be a non-partisan issue. We are all hurt when we lose these rights. All other differences aside, we should be able to stand side by side on this one issue, if nothing else, similar to how we were all able to come together, if but for a brief time, after 9/11. In the midst of that tragedy, it was nice to see this country united.
     
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  7. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    So what exactly does standing side by side in a non-partisan way to defend the 2A mean? I have been waiting for YEARS for someone to come up with the perfect recipe for the divergent "gun lovers" to coalesce into some sort of 2A power house.

    Unfortunately it comes down to targeting (or working with) politicians either by lobbying or electing someone else, which means you usually get one of two choices (an R or a D), which further means those of the liberal side will NEVER vote for an R (who may actually be the pro-2A candidate) and those of the conservative side will NEVER vote for a D (who may actually be the pro-2A candidate).

    Both parties stink on ice, as each one has it's own brand of perceived "tyranny" by the electorate. United we stand, divided we fall... and right now (the way I see it), we (as a country) could sure use a reserve chute because we're falling at terminal velocity, our main chute has been sabotaged... and the ground is coming up REAL FAST.
     
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  8. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    What do I mean? Exactly what you said - United we stand, divided we fall. There is no way I can imagine that will bring left and right together - there will always be people of very different opinions, and that's part of what makes this country great - you can have your opinion, I can have mine.

    When it comes to the 2nd, if we helped, encouraged and celebrated every pro 2A gun owner, regardless of party affiliation, we might just convince politicians to leave it alone. Make the issue non-partisan, and you remove the need for the left to attack the right and vice-versa. Make no mistake, this is as much about the damn party campaign folks looking for hot-button issues to mobilize their base. The democrats, in many ways, have taken up the mantle of gun control, why? Because they can use that as a tactic against the right. What I'm saying is if people from both side can stand united for gun rights, then maybe, just maybe, it ceases to be a political bargaining chip and simply becomes too toxic for them to pursue.

    I'm talking with a few on the left. I'd like to know why we don't see more on their side standing up to defend those rights. But one thing I'm betting is a big part of it, is every time they try to speak up, many on the right shout them down, call them names. This is hardly constructive.

    Simply put, we need more allies, not enemies. And I'm not talking about compromise, I'm talking about getting gun owners of all backgrounds on the same page - standing up against restrictions of our gun rights. That really should be something we can all agree on. I'm hoping to help be part of that solution. Sitting here arguing about it doesn't seem to be accomplishing much, so maybe it's time, to try a different tactic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2015
  9. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Don't get me wrong, I would love to see what you're talking about come to pass, BUT too many "gun lovers" vote for anti-2A politicians because "that politician" is for "greenie-weenie" issues, or "gay rights", or "animal rights", or "eat the rich" taxes, or "spotted owls", or "amnesty for illegals", or whatever narrow focused special interest of the day is more important to them at the moment... All at the cost of the 2A. :rolleyes:
     
  10. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    Well its failed for the past 50 or 60 years. For the 2nd to survive DemoBrats are going to have to vote for conservatives that actually Love the Constitution AS IT WAS WRITTEN. So far Not so many do or will.
    The Communist/Marxist mentality has taken over most of what was the democrat party and sucks the rest into that void.
     
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  11. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    You hit that one about as dead center as anything I have ever read.
    Yep to all of it. RED-Green weenie Hell is what we live in and around anymore :\/\/\/
    :rolleyes::mad::s0117::s0118::s0054:
     
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  12. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Southern Cascades Well-Known Member

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    In the Polling Place momentary amnesia is a problem with the unlikely allies , they have "Other Issues" that cloud their memory. The BEST ALLIES are other members of your choir ...
     
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  13. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I don't disagree with either of you for the most part. I know exactly what folks on the D side will vote as well as I know what folks on the R side will vote. But my suggestion isn't to turn D's into single issue voters (that's just not going to happen), so are we going to convince them to vote for an R. So let me say this again and see if I can be more clear, because I may not have been to this point.

    Acknowledging that people are, by and large, unlikely to change on a grand scale when it comes to their political views, and given that most will vote party lines, having a hope that they will vote for someone else is very highly unlikely. But I'm suggesting that there is another way - a way beyond simply voting for the 'right' people. What I'm suggesting is to mobilize the liberal gun owners in such a way that they don't feel like they are compromising on their personal beliefs by jumping parties. It's been suggested here that many of them don't like to come to places like this because the minute they chime in, we shout them down, call them names, deride their views. Yet these are people that, often, love guns as much as we do.

    In talking with one of the liberal members here, he pointed me to a liberal gun owners group so I could do a little more research on this issue. Since I'm not against learning something new, I decided to check out their forum site. In the process of reading some items on their forum, I found a link to a rather curious article: http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/sandy-hook-the-agony-of-the-liberal-gun-lover-82964 Now, I'm not asking you to read it if you don't want to, it is a liberal article and I know some folks won't care to even click on the link. But to summarize what it says, it states that many liberal gun owners have found themselves rejected by their fellow liberals and are also rejected and isolated by conservative gun owners, leaving them stuck in the middle with no place to call home. Per the article, a Gallup poll indicates there are 16 million gun owners that identify as liberals in this country. 16 million! Can you imagine the political power that can wield? The NRA has just over 5 million members, and look at what they can do. I also found, in doing some reading, that many seem just as unwilling to add more 'common sense' laws such as expanded background checks and magazine restrictions - hmmm, sounds familiar doesn't it? To me, it sounds like some folks I'd like to meet.

    To be blunt, we're ignoring a huge potential resource for gun rights. Many have the same views about guns that we do, but they don't agree with the rest of our politics, just as we don't agree with theirs. They also don't necessarily care for the way they, and other liberal gun owners are treated by us, the traditional 'defenders', if you will, of gun rights. Can you imagine if tomorrow, we could present 16 million vocal gun supporters to legislatures all over the country? If more anti-gun legislators knew that they would receive pressure from their own people with regard to gun issues, then, I am suggesting that perhaps, just perhaps, those legislators would consider gun control more of a dead issue, and just leave it alone. Those politicians aren't going to listen to us, but they may just listen to their own base. And while these folks likely won't threaten to withhold votes for them, they can withhold money, they can withhold support in other areas and they can be damn loud and bothersome with phone calls, emails and at public events. Basically, they could hold their own folks feet to the fire with respect to this one particular issue.

    In reality, gun control has become just one in a myriad of attack points for the left against the right. In similar fashion, the right has attack points against the left. If a large, vocal group of liberal voters demanded that their politicians leave the gun control measure alone, maybe we could affect the change we've been unable to make these many years.

    I care deeply about protecting our gun rights. I want to see the attacks on those rights stop. And while I'm not suggesting that trying to get pro-gun politicians into office is a plan that should be abandoned (it shouldn't), I'm suggesting there is an area that is still ready and available to be tapped, if we can find the right way to go about it. But that will require those gun owners from both sides to at least be able to sit down together and be civil to each other. If their own party is rejecting them at times, perhaps we can give them a safer place for this particular belief, even if only for this belief. We can continue to hate the other's politics, but since we both have a vested interest in protecting our 2A rights, let's find a way to harness the power of numbers to all our benefit.

    Change starts small. I'm meeting with a liberal member here in person in the near future. He sounds excited at the prospect, as do I. Maybe we can find just enough common ground to help start to make that change. 16 million more pro-gun supporters? I'd love to see what kind of influence that could have on anti-gun politicians. We've already seen some D politicians that are unwilling to vote for gun control measures because they do get pressure from their constituents. Couldn't that be done to more of them?

    That's my 2 cents on the matter, for what it's worth.
     
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  14. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Southern Cascades Well-Known Member

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    It will always be small, ("The Payoff" ) pandering to Far Left & Left Types , we are suffering from memory , the days of George Wallace type democrats are long gone and even in last few years you would have a hard time finding ANYONE who resembles a Blue Dog in elected National Politics . On a State Level its only better in the deepest red States with some purple states & most blue States RELYING ON LITIGATION as a 2A/RTKBA savior because the ballot box is virtually useless.
     
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  15. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Southern Cascades Well-Known Member

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    The Democrats have Oregon Washington Hawaii in their sights for State by State Firearm Restrictions and in their pocket are New Jersey California New York Connecticut Washington DC Massachusetts ... and they have grand plans Politically for Texas & other States the way they peeled Colorado to blue .
     
  16. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I don't know if it's just blinders people wear or what, but I am in no way suggesting 'pandering' to anyone - and I don't think anything I said in my post above can be taken as pandering. I'm suggesting there is a way this can work, without compromising on other principles. But I should also understand there are some that will always assume that that will fail. I'm of the opinion if we stop looking for other ways or refuse to look for other ways to attack this problem, then we'll most likely get stuck where we are now - constant push-backs, a win here, a loss there. I for one am tired of that kind of political BS and I'm going to look toward a different solution. Don't agree with me, that's okay, I support that right too.
     
  17. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Southern Cascades Well-Known Member

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    Why try and find Democrats on a Local State & National level to vote for with NRA Ratings like Harry Reid in 2006 or who currently own Gun Shops , because they are harder & harder to find . We can be nice to middle left & left leaning folks (relatives,coworkers,friends... but even if we get them really fired up about 2A/RTKBA ,for them to FIND ANY CANDIDATES TO ZERO IN ON is almost fruitless (Not totally but almost) and they WILL NOT CAVE on many other issues. Geez guys its hard enough to convince ourselves that the GOP is not rife with RINOS and now some of us think there are good people as far as 2A/RTKBA goes in Elected Democrat Politics with ANY CLOUT ?.
     
  18. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    First, it seems apparent you're either not reading my posts or not understanding them. I never, not a single time, suggested voting for Democrats as part of the solution. Where are you getting that? You may need to go back and read what I wrote again.

    I believe there can be other avenues, as I already said, more than once now, I'm not looking to pander or give in to anyone. We're always going to have both D's and R's in politics. And they will move forward based a lot on what their base wants. If there are enough D gun owners out there that tell D politicians to leave guns alone, you may just find that some can be swayed to leave it alone.

    As far as saying 'it can't work', 'it won't work', 'it hasn't worked', well, I guess I'm just a bit more optimistic than that. It's clear you don't agree with me on that point, I get it, but it doesn't sway me from looking for another solution to the ongoing attacks on our rights. Sitting here bubbleguming about it is changing nothing.
     
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  19. Gator Monroe

    Gator Monroe Southern Cascades Well-Known Member

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    I live in California , you guys in more recently so called "Free States" are more optimistic but who is really wearing the blinders here ?
     
  20. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I'm convinced that we are not going to get D's to vote for R's, and that strategy is out of our context as a one issue organization anyhow. There are too many other issues, such as the ones mentioned, that stand in the way of someone changing their entire party line. If they aren't going to cross the aisle to vote for gun-supporting R's, we need to get them to vote for gun-supporting D's. But there aren't many of those, are there? So we need to a) support the ones that do exist and b) work to create more of them.

    What we need to do is win people to our side on the gun issue, so they go back to their party and work within it to change minds regarding guns and gun owners. This is the only viable strategy, in my opinion, and the one I'll be working toward here.

    I'd love to hear some other realistic strategies, which don't involve telling other people how stupid they are, or trying to change their entire political ideology.

    You know that isn't going to happen, right? The R's are exactly friends to the constitution either (Patriot Act, anyone?), and this whole 'left-right' game is merely a facade. Though I'm part of the pro-constitution battle as well, if that's the strategy for our 2A rights, we might as well give up now.

    I agree with the allies statement, but lets leave assumptions out of this conversation.

    There is no pandering going on here, and putting that sort of negative spin on any attempt to get people to see things our way hurting our cause. You can't wall yourself off from the people you require to defend our 2A rights. Again, this is a simple numbers game, period.
     
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