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Just how do you PROVE a proper transfer was done without registration?

Do you think this will stop criminals who do not follow ALL the laws???????

Even with registration, it is not our burden to prove we are innocent, it is the governments burden to PROVE we are guilt. No, it won't stop the criminals from obtaining weapons, but that is not the true reason for the BGC anyway.
 
Nothing these bi-partisen goofballs are proposing will do much of anything to stop these crazy bastages from commiting selfless acts like we have seen on the news these last few years. And the Prez parading around these GV recipients (Newtown parents) to make a heart felt case that "WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING" for these people. A sad way to govern our country o say the least!!!
 
Even with registration, it is not our burden to prove we are innocent, it is the governments burden to PROVE we are guilt. No, it won't stop the criminals from obtaining weapons, but that is not the true reason for the BGC anyway.

This isn't necessarily true.. Lots of statutes put burden of proof on the defense. This is definitely the sort of law that is likely to be that way.

Google "affirmative defense"
 
For instance, the FAA and the Federal Wildlife Conservation people have decided that if ou are flying over a "protected area" at below 2,500ft, according to the complainant on the ground, you are disturbing the wildlife, whether they are impacted or not. You assume a burden of guilt automatically and it's a $100,000 fine and possibly 3 years in prison. So, if you don't have a GPS in your aircraft to show your altitude, someone on the ground can lie and put ou in the poorhouse and prison with a felony.
 
For instance, the FAA and the Federal Wildlife Conservation people have decided that if ou are flying over a "protected area" at below 2,500ft, according to the complainant on the ground, you are disturbing the wildlife, whether they are impacted or not. You assume a burden of guilt automatically and it's a $100,000 fine and possibly 3 years in prison. So, if you don't have a GPS in your aircraft to show your altitude, someone on the ground can lie and put ou in the poorhouse and prison with a felony.

I find that one hard to believe. No reasonable jury could convict on something like that. Defense lawyer "did you have a laser range finder to get this elevation information?" No? then how did you know what altitude they were flying at? If they did have a Laser range finder, the next question would be "when was it last calibrated". As consumer range-finders are never calibrated, the case ends there.

Affirmative defense is a different concept. In Affirmative defense, you plead...yes I did that, but I am not culpable because... Rather than saying, "no, I did not do that, now it is up to you to prove I did"

Search and Rescue or F&W might use an affirmative defense if someone complained about the altitude they were flying at. A private person would not. A private person would plead not guilty and force the state to prove he/she was guilty. Personally, someone complained about how high I was flying above ground level, I would dispatch the criminal case and then sue the pants off the complainers.
 
Ok, in case some do not know the difference between exempt, and an affirmative defense, may I give a couple examples.

In RCW 9.41.270(1) it says you cannot display a weapon with the intent to intimidate.

In RCW 9.41.270(3) it says "(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:"

That is an exemption...they cannot charge you with violating (1) if you belong to one of the groups listed in (3). This law does not apply as if it did not exist.


Now, if you go to RCW 9A.32 you will see all of the things that could constitute homicide WA.

Then if you go to RCW 9A.16 you will see the list of affirmative defenses to a charge of homicide...look specifically at 9A.16.32 and 110 as defenses against charges such as homicide.

These are "defenses" you say "yes, I did that, However, I am not culpable because..."

Neither of these has anything to do with "Innocent until proven guilty". In the first case you are not guilty of violating the law, because the law does not apply to you. That is not a "defense"..that is an excuse from prosecution. They just cannot charge you.

In the second case you are not guilty because you have a legal defense. They can charge you, but you cannot be convicted. Judge will throw the case out.

The third case, they can charge you, and if proven guilty, convict you...but the burden of proof is on the state. You do not have to prove you did not do...whatever...they have to PROVE you did.
 
I believe the current estimate for firearms ownership in Oregon is about 40%, and the 2012 population estimate was 3.9 million. That puts the estimated number of gun owners at 1.56 million in Oregon, alone.

How many military, LEOs, etc do you think there are in this State? How many of them would participate in confiscation?

How long would it take in the Information Age for word of a confiscation attempt to go viral?

The only way for confiscation to work is by doing it piecemeal, and taking advantage of division between population segments. "No guns for Muslims." "No guns for people without X education."

Registration will come. The question is whether or not we'll stand up for each other, and speak up for the rights of other sub-groups.
 
The only way for confiscation to work is by doing it piecemeal, and taking advantage of division between population segments. "No guns for Muslims." "No guns for people without X education."

Registration will come. The question is whether or not we'll stand up for each other, and speak up for the rights of other sub-groups.

Just in this thread on a gun board you see how many "pro-gun" folks are willing to give up so much. They are willing to give up again because THIS time it does not effect them or "hey I still get to keep my XXX". It is sad :(
 
true there is no way to tell if some one is a felon or not in a ftf transaction. I usually carry along a copy of my 03 ffl, whether it's a c&r or not. that is about the only assurance I can give a seller, they don't give them to felons .
 
Just in this thread on a gun board you see how many "pro-gun" folks are willing to give up so much. They are willing to give up again because THIS time it does not effect them or "hey I still get to keep my XXX". It is sad :(

I'm not "willing" to give up anything... but I accept that the world is changing, and the things some people hold sacred simply aren't. The Constitution, as you know, was basically abandoned about a century ago, if one can say it was ever upheld by our government. The rest of the world, including most of America, doesn't give two bubblegums about gun owners' feelings on the matter, nor our Constitution. So are we going to commit suicide for our perceived rights, or get smart about it? It's about survival at this point. You're not going to make any gains, just slow the bleeding.

I'll never consent to new gun legislation of any kind- but it's not up to me. I'll also not martyr myself. I've got a wife whom I love to live my life with, 5 kids to raise up, a career to build, and passions to pursue. It's super gay what's happening to my significantly less-important hobby, but it's just not on my list of things worth dying or getting incarcerated over.
 
America, doesn't give two bubblegums about gun owners' feelings on the matter, nor our Constitution. So are we going to commit suicide for our perceived rights, or get smart about it? It's about survival at this point. You're not going to make any gains, just slow the bleeding.

I'll never consent to new gun legislation of any kind- but it's not up to me. I'll also not martyr myself. I've got a wife whom I love to live my life with, 5 kids to raise up, a career to build, and passions to pursue. It's super gay what's happening to my significantly less-important hobby, but it's just not on my list of things worth dying or getting incarcerated over.

I am with you on "being smart" instead of mounting a suicidal frontal assault, but I do not feel the battle is over yet. You are too pessimistic.

I believe the battle is still on. There are lots of positive signs: the number of new gun owners, growing number of concealed carry permits, through-the-roof gun sales, busy gun ranges, and so on. The battle is simply cultural and political now: we need to get a broader support in the general population. We need the gun culture to get out of its traditional pockets and reach out to minorities, women, youth, Democrats, immigrants, etc. We need to discourage those who scare the cr*p out of public with their conspiracy theories, fear-mongering, and outright rejection of all proposals they happen to dislike. Under no circumstances we should resemble a sect - that is a road to extinction.

Look, I never really, truly cared about taxes until I started to make significant money. With guns it is the same: people do not care about something they never use. Once you have a gun and can enjoy shooting, it is much easier to take the next step and think about the Second Amendment and what it really means, etc. In this country, you get things done not by yelling the loudest from your wing (Left or Right), but by winning the Center.
 
I find that one hard to believe. No reasonable jury could convict on something like that. Defense lawyer "did you have a laser range finder to get this elevation information?" No? then how did you know what altitude they were flying at? If they did have a Laser range finder, the next question would be "when was it last calibrated". As consumer range-finders are never calibrated, the case ends there.

Affirmative defense is a different concept. In Affirmative defense, you plead...yes I did that, but I am not culpable because... Rather than saying, "no, I did not do that, now it is up to you to prove I did"

Search and Rescue or F&W might use an affirmative defense if someone complained about the altitude they were flying at. A private person would not. A private person would plead not guilty and force the state to prove he/she was guilty. Personally, someone complained about how high I was flying above ground level, I would dispatch the criminal case and then sue the pants off the complainers.

Believe it or not, it's the truth. The law says you ave an assumption of guilt. I'm a pilot and they created one of those zones almost covering 3/4 of the Washington coastline.
 
How exactly would this stop crime? All it does is let the government dig their greasy fingers further and further into your life and personal business.
We can't "compromise" because EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO TO HARM ANOTHER PERSON WITH A GUN IS ALREADY ILLEGAL. It's all just slicing away at the 2A. Does it matter if someone commits 1 crime or 7 when they commit a horrible act? Especially since a lot of these psychos tend to "off" themselves at the end of their rampage? Stop restricting the law abiding to try to control the lawless.
 
How exactly would this stop crime? All it does is let the government dig their greasy fingers further and further into your life and personal business.
We can't "compromise" because EVERYTHING YOU CAN DO TO HARM ANOTHER PERSON WITH A GUN IS ALREADY ILLEGAL. It's all just slicing away at the 2A. Does it matter if someone commits 1 crime or 7 when they commit a horrible act? Especially since a lot of these psychos tend to "off" themselves at the end of their rampage? Stop restricting the law abiding to try to control the lawless.

It won't stop sh*t. However, that's not the point. It is a "feel good" bill intended to wrap the entire debate up and save Congress from humiliation. No background checks for trades between "friends", no way to enforce anything. It is basically a joke, unless they stuff it with really bad amendments.

However, the bill offers the ability to buy and sell guns across state lines (for example, using this very forum) which should create a more liquid market and drive prices down (small "mom and pop" local gun stores will not like it though). It also enables national reciprocity of concealed carry permits, so you can travel the entire country without checking each and every local law. That stuff is golden - it can change hundreds of state and local concealed carry laws in America; the NRA has tried to pull it off as a separate legislation, but failed.

The House is probably going to vote it down anyway.
 
Believe it or not, it's the truth. The law says you ave an assumption of guilt. I'm a pilot and they created one of those zones almost covering 3/4 of the Washington coastline.

A good lawyer would kill that so fast it would make your head spin. It is never your burden to prove you did something. The IRS learned that in court. Don't care what the wording of the "Law" may be. What FAR is this you are talking about? I never fly the coast so I have never read a NOTAM that points to any area like that. The only thing we are concerned with out here is military training exclusion zones.
 
I document all firearms I sell. I get a signature and a xerox of the purchasers license, and write down the serial and make of the firearm with the date. If the guns used in a crime, I have no problem handing that persons information over.

In this case is feel even better because then I'd know the person I sold to wasn't a felon. Once again, I'd have a copy of the BG check, the date, their signature, Xerox of their license, and I'd have a copy of the serial and make of the gun.

I don't have a problem with that process. It allows us to defer responsibility for the firearm, and precludes them from creating a registry. If they want to track the gun down, they can, which again, to me, is fine. We have to stop them from creating a live registry where they know who has hat and when.

Ridiculous.
 
I document all firearms I sell. I get a signature and a xerox of the purchasers license, and write down the serial and make of the firearm with the date. If the guns used in a crime, I have no problem handing that persons information over.

In this case is feel even better because then I'd know the person I sold to wasn't a felon. Once again, I'd have a copy of the BG check, the date, their signature, Xerox of their license, and I'd have a copy of the serial and make of the gun.

I don't have a problem with that process. It allows us to defer responsibility for the firearm, and precludes them from creating a registry. If they want to track the gun down, they can, which again, to me, is fine. We have to stop them from creating a live registry where they know who has hat and when.

You are a closet anti. You have no idea what the law actually states, and I would never do business with you. Yes, I do have a CPL, and a TS clearance from the military, and a blasters license to purchase and to use (you do know there are three blasters permits...yes? But I have a very low opinion of people that feel as you do. Everyone in the US is not a criminal unless proven otherwise...

Why don't you go have dinner with Shumer and Feinstein, you would probably get along fine with them.
 

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