Oregon Is there an insidious chicken or the egg argument with 114?

[RVTECH]

Oh I think the authors of the legislation knew exactly what they were doing.

So do I.

They may have not considered some of the finite details but they had the 'big picture' scripted and it's playing out well for them.

 

[Mark W.]

If I understand it correctly, $65 is just the fee for the permit. The class is going to be a separate fee unto itself and there is no limit on what the range can charge. To that end, there also doesn't seem to be much definition around how long the course has to be and/or exactly what it must present. But for rough comparison, an 8 hour initial CCW course (CA) costs around $200-$250 and four hour CCW renewal course costs around $100. However, in both cases you supply your own gun and ammo. If a range is supplying the gun and ammo I would expect they would add at least another $50 to the cost.

I also don't have much faith that the permit part of this bill will be struck down. On the one hand, it absolutely should be based on the recent Bruen decision, as there were no cities/states that required you to obtain a permit and take a class in order to own a gun back in 1791 when the COTUS was ratified.

On the other hand, there are other states that require you to obtain a permit first before you can own a gun. And SCOTUS completely ignored its own ruling by saying it was permissible to require a permit to carry a concealed gun, even though that didn't exist back in 1791 either.

So if requiring a permit to CCW is permissible, then why wouldn't SCOTUS also make an exception about a permit to own a gun in the first place?

SCOTUS' inconsistency is very troubling.

Oh correction the permit is to BUY a firearm not to own one. I own a bunch of them and may not bother with getting a permit ever.

 

[RVTECH]

Oh correction the permit is to BUY a firearm not to own one.

Which is why I believe a BIG part of the 'permit to buy' was a 'backdoor' way to dramatically limit new gun sales in the future.

They realized they couldn't take what is already here so the next step was to limit new sales. Take into account the permit fee, class & range costs and time constraints and the approx. 11% yes votes in the poll might be pretty accurate across the board - and maybe less for 'casual' gun owners.

 

[PiratePast40]

Oh correction the permit is to BUY a firearm not to own one. I own a bunch of them and may not bother with getting a permit ever.

You are correct. SCOTUS was clear about states having the right to require a permit for carry outside the home, but has said nothing about a permit to purchase or own.

 

[BluesReds]

Which is why I believe a BIG part of the 'permit to buy' was a 'backdoor' way to dramatically limit new gun sales in the future.

They realized they couldn't take what is already here so the next step was to limit new sales. Take into account the permit fee, class & range costs and time constraints and the approx. 11% yes votes in the poll might be pretty accurate across the board - and maybe less for 'casual' gun owners.

It's not going to work. 3D printing is on the cusp of breaking through to materials that will allow everyone to make their own guns. Technology marches on. I've been saying for years that as soon as it becomes mainstream to be able to print in metal it's game, set, match. The files to print them are absolutely protected speech under the 1st amendment, so no stopping those from spreading. The right to print your own is protected under the second. In short, they're going to lose to technology in less than 5-10 years.

 

[GWS]

It's not going to work. 3D printing is on the cusp of breaking through to materials that will allow everyone to make their own guns. Technology marches on. I've been saying for years that as soon as it becomes mainstream to be able to print in metal it's game, set, match. The files to print them are absolutely protected speech under the 1st amendment, so no stopping those from spreading. The right to print your own is protected under the second. In short, they're going to lose to technology in less than 5-10 years.

So they'll go after ammo instead

 

[ARFrog]

If I understand it correctly, $65 is just the fee for the permit. The class is going to be a separate fee unto itself and there is no limit on what the range can charge. To that end, there also doesn't seem to be much definition around how long the course has to be and/or exactly what it must present. But for rough comparison, an 8 hour initial CCW course (CA) costs around $200-$250 and four hour CCW renewal course costs around $100. However, in both cases you supply your own gun and ammo. If a range is supplying the gun and ammo I would expect they would add at least another $50 to the cost.

I agree that you should be aware of more than just the camel's nose regarding this initial fee. In Occupied California what started out as a basic safety certificate has morphed into:

$25.00 - Firearm Safety Certificate (FSC) good for 5 years
$37.19 - DROS per firearm (background check)
??? - lock or storage fees ( $5.00 - thousands depending on lock or safe and local municipality requirements)
??? - certain more progressive municipalities have been more recently floating a type of mandated insurance

If you want a CCW, fees will very by County, but some are seeing :

$160.00 - county fees
$130.00 - $150.00 - for state, local, and firearms ownership check fees
$230.000 - $400.00 - for 8 - 16 hours of training on CCW. Some include a shooting qualification and some still have to have the qualification done by the County)
$150.00 - $300 - some Counties require Psych evaluations

All in all the cost of government is getting higher and higher even without discussions of:

- right or privledge
- good moral character being used to bypass Bruen restrictions against use of requiring good cause to obtain
- restrictions on how arms and ammo are carried both in and outside the home
- increased restrictions on where a CCW holder can carry
- waiting periods
- restrictions on direct shipment of firearms or ammo
- etc.
- etc.

So, be aware, be very aware...

 

[The Heretic]

So they'll go after ammo instead

Ammo and/or registration of existing guns.

 

[nammac]

I agree that you should be aware of more than just the camel's nose regarding this initial fee. In Occupied California what started out as a basic safety certificate has morphed into:

$25.00 - Firearm Safety Certificate (FSC) good for 5 years
$37.19 - DROS per firearm (background check)
??? - lock or storage fees ( $5.00 - thousands depending on lock or safe and local municipality requirements)
??? - certain more progressive municipalities have been more recently floating a type of mandated insurance

If you want a CCW, fees will very by County, but some are seeing :

$160.00 - county fees
$130.00 - $150.00 - for state, local, and firearms ownership check fees
$230.000 - $400.00 - for 8 - 16 hours of training on CCW. Some include a shooting qualification and some still have to have the qualification done by the County)
$150.00 - $300 - some Counties require Psych evaluations

All in all the cost of government is getting higher and higher even without discussions of:

- right or privledge
- good moral character being used to bypass Bruen restrictions against use of requiring good cause to obtain
- restrictions on how arms and ammo are carried both in and outside the home
- increased restrictions on where a CCW holder can carry
- waiting periods
- restrictions on direct shipment of firearms or ammo
- etc.
- etc.

So, be aware, be very aware...

Seems the costs to carry a concealed firearm is akin to poll taxes…. Being taxed (permit/class fees) for the ability to exercise a right…

 

[RVTECH]

It's not going to work. 3D printing is on the cusp of breaking through to materials that will allow everyone to make their own guns.

When I said 'limit new gun sales' I was referring to conventional, known factory made guns which constitute the 'lion's share' of the market.

Even if 3D printing becomes mainstream and 'allow everyone to make their own guns' I highly doubt 'everyone' will do so. I suspect it will still only be a niche undertaking in the big scheme of things.