Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Is there a hunting rifle that shoots 7.62x51?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Working 4 U, Mar 24, 2012.

  1. Working 4 U

    Working 4 U Eugene Active Member

    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    120
    My first problem is I am left handed.

    So I like Savage firearms, I have an 7mm Mag an old 110L model and I feel I am accurate with it, but man I am getting old and it's gotta kick.

    One day I would like to buy an AR-10 left handed, if Stag Arms ever decides to release it, but in the mean time I would like to buy a rifle chambered in .308 for this hunting season.

    That brings me back to my Question, is there a "Hunting rifle" out there that will shoot 7.62x51 and 308? I understand there are minute differences?:huh:

    Can any one elaborate for me.

    Thanks guys.:thumbup:
     
  2. BANE

    BANE Battle Ground WA. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,109
    Likes Received:
    89
    I shoot a remington 700 and have never had a issue shooting 308 or surplus 7.62x51..
     
  3. jake2far

    jake2far Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    112
    Perhaps this is what you want:
    http://www.northwestfirearms.com/rifle-shotgun-classifieds/85351-savage-model-99e-308-carbine.html

    Any modern rifle will shoot both 308 and 7.62x51. The case wall is thicker in the 7.62 for auto fire.

    Jim
     
    tedium27 and (deleted member) like this.
  4. drew

    drew OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    970
    I picked up a Browning BLR in 308 because I didn't want a right handed bolt rifle.

    You can shoot 7.62x51 in a 308 rifle.
    http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
     
  5. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    5,776
    Likes Received:
    4,967
    To answer your question Hundreds of different models of hunting rifles have been chambered in .308 (What NATO calls 7.62 x 51) since its introduction by Winchester in 1952.

    Since you can't hunt with Military FMJ ammo it shouldn't be a concern. You can use cheap surplus ammo in a hunting rifle for target practice or plinking.

    Savage alone makes 44 different models in .308
     
    mjbskwim and (deleted member) like this.
  6. rdb241

    rdb241 Puyallup Washington Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

    Messages:
    2,594
    Likes Received:
    2,090
    Win model 70 short action, 26" heavy barrel. This rifle has taken 8 of my 9 deer. I can hold a 4" group at 200 yards.
     
  7. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    175
    I see 6mmbr still gives out incorrect information on the .308/7.62 pressures.

    Because of the nature of the internet and the inherent tendency of human beings towards believing
    anything that sounds reasonable, without applying critical thinking skills (probably a result of trends in
    government school systems – but that is another treatise), there is much misinformation available to the
    casual gun enthusiast about a variety of subjects concerning firearms.
    One of the most pernicious of these “urban legends” is that there is a significant difference in the
    pressures between the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and the 308 Winchester cartridge. The
    misinformation indicates that using the commercial offering in a military weapon will visit death and
    destruction of biblical proportions upon the miscreant who would attempt such a thing.

    Pressure
    Despite working together, the two main industry standards organizations SAAMI and C.I.P. have
    assigned different standards for some cartridges. This leads to officially sanctioned conflicting differences
    between European and American ammunition and chamber dimensions and maximum allowed chamber
    pressures.
    Under SAAMI proof test procedures, for bottlenecked cases the center of the transducer is located .175"
    behind the shoulder of the case for large diameter (.250") transducers and .150" for small diameter
    (.194") transducers. For straight cases the center of the transducer is located one-half of the transducer
    diameter plus .005" behind the base of the seated bullet. Small transducers are used when the case
    diameter at the point of measurement is less than .35".
    Under C.I.P. proof test standards a drilled case is used and the piezo measuring device (transducer) will
    be positioned at a distance of 25 mm from the breech face when the length of the cartridge case permits
    that, including limits. When the length of the cartridge case is to short, pressure measurement will take
    place at a cartridge specific defined shorter distance from the breech face depending on the dimensions
    of the case.
    The difference in the location of the pressure measurement gives different results than the C.I.P.
    standard.
    According to the official C.I.P guidelines the .308 Winchester (referred to as 7.62x51 by CIP) case can
    handle up to 415 MPa (60,190 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge
    combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.

    The .308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO cartridges are not identical and there are minor differences
    in their inner case dimensions, though SAAMI does not list either cartridge as unsafe in a firearm
    designed for use with the other. [http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm].

    NATO EPVAT testing is one of the three recognized classes of procedures used in the world to control
    the safety and quality of firearms ammunition.
    EPVAT Testing is described in unclassified documents by NATO, more precisely by the AC/225 Army
    Armaments Group (NAAG).
    EPVAT is an abbreviation for "Electronic Pressure Velocity and Action Time". This is a comprehensive
    procedure for testing ammunition using state-of-the-art instruments and computers. The procedure itself
    is described in NATO document AC/225 (Com. III/SC.1)D/200.
    Unlike the C.I.P. procedures aiming only at the user's safety, the NATO procedures for ammunition
    testing also includes comprehensive functional quality testing in relation with the intended use. That is,
    not only the soldier's safety is looked at, but also his capacity to incapacitate the enemy. As a result, for
    every ammunition order by NATO, a complete acceptance approval on both safety and functionality is
    performed by both NATO and the relevant ammunition manufacturers in a contradictory fashion.
    For this, a highly accurate and indisputable protocol has been defined by NATO experts using a system
    of reference cartridges.
    The civilian organizations C.I.P. and SAAMI use less comprehensive test procedures than NATO, but
    NATO test centers have the advantage that only a few chamberings are in military use. The C.I.P. and
    SAAMI proof houses must be capable of testing hundreds of different chamberings requiring lots of
    different test barrels, etc..[7.62 mm. STANAG 2310 and NATO Manual of Proof and Inspection AC/225
    (LG/3-SG/1) D/9.]
    The US Army continues to use (as of 1995) the M-11 Copper Crusher device for pressure measurements
    of small arms ammunition. The M-11 was enhanced, when in 1982, it was noted that the results
    generated at the high end of the test range did not meet NATO standards. [Defense Technical
    Information Center, ARMY BALLISTIC RESEARCH LAB/APD, Accession Number : ADP000024]
    What is interesting to note is that around the time of the engineering change to the M-11 Copper Crusher
    device, the US Army changed the units of measurement for the device from PSI to Copper Units of
    Pressure, or CUP. Both SAAMI and CIP used the copper crusher method until the advent of inexpensive,
    reliable piezoelectric strain gauges, at which point, both organizations converted their methodologies to
    take advantage of the newer technology.
    The copper crusher method was the standard for small arms pressure measurements since the late
    1800s. A copper pellet just like a small watch battery in placed in the test pressure chamber which is
    attached to the cartridge chamber, the test round is fired and the copper pellet is then measured with a
    micrometer. The micrometer measurement is then converted into a PSI reading by using a chart that
    converts the length of the pellet into a pressure reading. The charts are constructed using the theoretical
    modulus of compression for the particular copper alloy used in the pellet, and may or may not have any
    relation to the actual absolute pressure. BUT, the results of the copper crusher method are always
    relative to previous results, which allows for determining what is safe and what is not.
    Both SAAMI and the CIP have detailed specifications for the arrangement and dimensions of the copper
    crusher. Because these two systems are not identical, the two crusher standards cannot always agree.
    Further, as explained above, CIP crusher ratings are generally a bit higher than SAAMI's due to
    differences in definitions. Also, SAAMI is generally more conservative with older military rounds, such as
    the 8mm Mauser.
    With the SAAMI methodology, the piston is positioned over the brass case, and the case will rupture
    somewhere below 20,000 PSI. The resulting sudden jump in pressure under the piston magnifies
    problems with piston inertia, and this makes the reading more sensitive to parameters such as burning
    rate, case strength, and true peak pressure. The CIP methodology requires the piston case be drilled at
    the sensor location, and the benefit is that crusher and piezoelectric ratios are much more consistent from
    cartridge to cartridge, allowing them to reasonably use a conversion formula.
    The table below outlines some of the salient differences in testing:

    Pressure Confusion
    However, neither method addresses the figure “50,000 PSI” that is so often misquoted, especially by
    “expert” sources such as 6mmbr.com and surplusrifle.com.

    This figure comes from the US Army in various technical manuals, most notably, TM-D001-27
    The real problem is the confusion between the old and the new methods of pressure testing. The old
    pressure testing method used for the 7.62 NATO cartridge started out life in the 1950s and is still
    published today in the US Army Technical Manuals. The figures are based on the copper crusher
    method in CUP, but are published as PSI.
    The new method is the piezoelectric strain gauge transducer method; it is the same technology used
    today to show an automobile’s oil pressure. The piezoelectric strain gauge transducer pressure method
    is a direct pressure reading based on an absolute standard, where the older copper crusher method a
    conversion based on a relative measure and a conversion chart. And this is why you see the difference in
    the pressure readings, but the older 52,000 CUP is equal to 62,000 PSI (piezoelectric transducer
    method).
    Today, these two methods are called CUP and PSI and the readings are different, but 52,000 CUP
    equals 62,000 PSI and both are the same pressure, similar to the way 60 MPH equals 100 KPH.

    Conclusions
    The pressure difference between the two rounds is insignificant, the real problem is commercial
    ammunition has thinner cases that were not designed to shoot in military chambers BUT we do it all the
    time anyway and this why you see more case head separations on commercial cases fired in military
    chambers.

    The M118 special long range round is loaded to 52,000 CUP (all other U.S. 7.62mm are 50,000 CUP)
    which would be equal to the pressure levels of commercial ammunition, this means actually there is no
    pressure difference between the .308 and 7.62 NATO for the M118 cartridge.
    No accurate conversion between copper crusher and true pressure exists, but approximations can be
    made. In all the conversions outlined above, pressures are in thousands of PSI (KPSI). Expect errors of
    several KPSI, or about 15%, with such formulas. Many factors determine how much the indicated
    pressure reading from a crusher misses the true pressure, and the error varies among cartridges and
    even among different loads for one cartridge. The conversions might be accurate enough for many
    practical purposes.
    So, to sum everything up, the pressure difference between the 308 Winchester and the 7.62x51mm
    NATO is less than 2,000 PSI which is statistically insignificant.
    The same pressure variation may be
    achieved by firing any rifle on a hot day and on a cold day or by changing brands of primers. It is safe to
    shoot 308 Winchester in your 7.62x51 rifles (even the Ishapores) and vice versa. Handloaders should be
    aware that they should reduce the amount of powder when using military 7.62 NATO cases by about 10-
    12% and work up to safe pressures with corresponding velocities.
     
    tedium27, Flopsweat, chemist and 7 others like this.
  8. Ding

    Ding Lighter Side of Oz Active Member

    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    28
    Change out your recoil pad to vented pad.I am guessing yours is solid.Reduces the kick by 60% or more.I have a 7 rem mag and changed the pad and can shoot all day long,even with the 175 grain slugs.
     
  9. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Slightly right of center Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,982
    Likes Received:
    2,224
    Nice write-up madcratebuilder. I've never seen it explained better. Is the .223 vs. 5.56 issue different, and if so, how?
     
  10. DieselScout

    DieselScout S Clackamas County Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,350
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Here's a great write up from Rifle Shooter Magazine a few months ago.

    5.56 vs. .223

    From the article.

    There is more information and some great pictures in the article and it's a pretty great read if you've got some time.
     
  11. tedium27

    tedium27 Craigmont, ID Member

    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    madcratebuilder, ACE dude. Excellent!
    My one request to all is, "Please identify and use foriegn milsurp 7.62X51 ammo with caution until you prove it in YOUR firearm."
    European stuff "seems" alright, depending on projectile grain weight, but more than once I have purchased rounds produced in So. Africa or Egypt or... and had it clearly exceed safety margins. Extruded/flattened/blown primers, seperated cases at the head, base (cracked) deformation, shoulder cracking, etc.
    Especially if you see external case markings like the round was forced out of a belt (machinegun). Some ammo seems to have had it's load limit exceeded to better "run" full auto fire.
     
  12. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    175
    Any "SURPLUS" ammo could cause problems. When you by surplus you have no idea haw it has been stored, or handled in the past. Ammo stored at very high or very low temps can see changes in the propellents characteristics that may cause changes in pressures when fired.

    The surplus ammo that is most commonly associated with this is Egyptian, Pakistani, Indian, South African and even some German. I avoid repacked surplus and only buy in sealed containers, unless I know the person selling and know it originated from sealed containers.

    Personally I've had all good experiences with SA and German surplus, luck of the draw I guess.


    Everyone should be aware of the pressure difference in machine gun ammo, it's normally higher than standard issue. This goes back to before WW2.

    In regards to the .223/5.56 debate IMHO it's the barrel leade that is different. On paper it is possible for the longer OAL 5.56 round to have the bullet jammed into the leade of a .223 barrel. On paper, that may cause a pressure spike. This pressure spike is not because the round is loaded to a higher pressure but because the bullet, jammed into the leade, is not free to move that first few thousandth of an inch. People have been shooting 5.56 in .223 chambers for as long as the two rounds have been around and I have never read about a proven problem from doing so. It is theoretically possible.

    Some precision shooters load with a OAL so the bullet is touching the leade, then use very little crimp.
     
    chemist and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Working 4 U

    Working 4 U Eugene Active Member

    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    120
    Thanks everybody for your input. Now its time to start deciding on what I want. Thanks all