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Is the term "Reload" correct in this case?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by deadshot2, Jun 22, 2011.

  1. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    You go to to the shop and buy a couple hundred brand new brass cases in your desired caliber. You also bring home brand new bullets, Powder, and Primers.

    You then go to a website and obtain a load from a manufacturer that publishes the loads that they produce in their factory made ammo.

    You assemble these components according to the "formula" a manufacturer provided.

    You test it and it shoots just like their factory produced ammo with the same speed as published.

    So is the term "Reload" appropriate now in describing this ammunition you produced?

    Or would it more appropriately be called "Hand Loaded Ammo".

    Now for the "kicker". If you loaded it on a machine, lets say a Dillon 1050 with a KISS bullet feeder, where the only "hand" involved is pulling the handle, is it really "Hand Loaded"? Or did you now become a manufacturer albeit with out a license?

    In essence, what difference is there between a "Factory Load" and what you just produced?
     
  2. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe Lower Yakima Valley Well-Known Member

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    You added far more love than the factory did, which makes them extra shiny.
     
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  3. coop44

    coop44 Tacoma ,WA Well-Known Member

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    And the point is?
     
  4. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    I was asking a question, not trying to make a point.
     
  5. dakaham

    dakaham Albany, Oregon, United States Active Member

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    maybe not.... But when you reload those cases you will be reloading!
     
  6. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

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    hand load means you did it not a factory.
    after you shoot a bullet and you want to shoot it again you reload it by
    placing it by hand into a reloading press


    so bassed on you getting NEW brass and supply they would be new hand loads

    why ? because a factory has many a redundent features so as to make sure all the rounds they make go bang
    why reloads or hand loads because you are the only one who inspects the rounds and hope they all go bang
     
  7. HappyRoman

    HappyRoman Sherwood Forest Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    YOU ARE loading ammunition. YOU ARE MAKING NEW AMMO. IF you were to sell this ammo, you could be classified as a manufacture. As such, regulations are in for record keeping, TAXes and Liability.. You will need an FFL-ammo manufacturing liscense and the hits just keep coming.. Ammo storage, powder storage and primer lockers.. Enjoy loading/reloading/unloading as hobbiest and be safe.
     
  8. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    This is part of the reason I tend to drop the "re" from "loading" as part of my normal process, I bring all the fired brass back to factory spec using a case processor, and several aggressive cleaning steps, and then QC it. The main difference between what you are producing and what the factory likely sells is you arn't waterproofing your ammunition, and while it may not be as serious as military waterproofing, some steps are usually taken to weatherproof factory ammo. For the most part, this just doesn't make any sense for the home loader as sealing is usually done during the pierce and prime operation on a separate machine.

    Personally, I'm pretty much never satisfied pulling a load out of a book, which is part of the reason I got into loading my own in the first place. I always wanted something different than what factories offered, whether it's a heavier load, lighter load, more accurate load etc. There's a lot more to making ammunition than just assembling a cartridge, and this is something a lot of neophyte loaders have not made the leap of understanding towards. Even the big boys spend a lot of time in the selection of components, and once they find something that works good most of the time, for most people that's when they load it.

    At the place I work, we may go through 10-15 iterations of a load before we get the desired performance, and a lot of the time, using OEM components, there's no loading book we can go to to pull data from. Our experience tells us about where a load should be given a bullet, and a powder, but it still has to be pressure tested before we will go on and test the load for accuracy, and some of the other more terse aspects. The other issue, is sometimes you will come up with a load that is excellent, but due to some external factor it is simply too difficult to load using automated equipment, so either it never gets made, or never gets made in large enough volumes for most people to ever try it out.
     
  9. sig40shooter

    sig40shooter Tahuya WA Member

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    Here is a question that may fit in this tread. Are there any products on the market to hand load that does not involve a special press? I mean truly "hand" tools. Just a thought.
     
  10. PhysicsGuy

    PhysicsGuy Corvallis, OR Resident Science Nut

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    Yes its called a "Lee loader", but they tend to be extremely inefficient compared to a cheap C frame press.
     
  11. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

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    i have 3030 and 7mm mag for sale :D
     
  12. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    Ah! The "Whack-A-Mole" loader. Some people at the range use dies like this with an Arbor Press so they don't need to use a hammer.
     
  13. sig40shooter

    sig40shooter Tahuya WA Member

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    Thank you all for the info!
     
  14. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, LEE makes a hand loading press that is built a lot like a Heavy Duty Nut Cracker.

    http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=624416 It sells in the $30-$40 dollar range. Makes a great loading setup if you like to work loads up one at a time at the range.
     
  15. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    For me, there is a definitive line between Handloading, and Reloading. Handloading involves research, care, necessary labor and some refinements to get the very best out of your firearm. Reloading is merely cranking out ammo in quantity and speed in order to get more trigger time. Neither is better or worse. Depends on the ultimate goal.
     
  16. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    I guess the reason I asked this question is the discussion that comes up from time to time as to whether one should carry "Reloads" for a Self Defense Ammo.

    My original question was based on the use of all new components. Parts and pieces just like those used by the manufacturers of ammunition sold to the public. Ammunition that performs exactly (based on chronograph measurements) as that that comes in a box for about twice the cost as what one might produce by hand.

    If one can produce by hand, something that for all practical purposes is the same as that produced in a factory, what's the difference? Or are there those who are sheep that have been "herded" into the same mindset by a "writer of magazine articles"? A mentality that believes one is in greater danger of prosecution because they used a hand loaded piece of ammo for self defense rather than a factory loaded piece that does the same thing.

    I've always wondered how this got started. If this is true, that handloads subject one to prosecution then wouldn't it hold that unless they used a Louisville Slugger to brain someone attacking them, rather than that hand carved club they keep behind the door, they too would be more likely to be prosecuted for not using something "factory made".

    As for the reliability, for some reason I can't buy that either. I have had "duds" coming from boxes of ammo bought at my local shop. In the thousands and thousands of rounds I have "hand loaded" I can still count the "duds" on one hand.

    Just wondering why so many have bought into the concept of only carrying factory ammo for self defense because of the fear of prosecution?

    In closing, the side argument put forth by the "magazine writer" is to "Carry what the Police Carry". Does that mean only 9mm, 40 S&W, 45acp, or .38 Spl, as well? What about that 44 Mag or your .380? Does this mean one should never carry a 500 S&W for Self Defense?

    For some reason it makes no sense yet there are so many that are blindly accepting this advice.

    Comments welcome.
     
  17. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I think the "don't use reloads" for personal protection thing came from a book (Cooper? Ayoob? please correct me if wrong), where he postulated that someone you shot in self-defense (and lived) might bring up the fact you reloaded your ammo as an indicator that you had a predisposition to shooting a person rather than other means of solving the problem of protecting yourself. Certainly a lawyer might pounce on this and bring it up in court that you selected a particularly more "deadly" bullet (whatever that means) ahead of time, or increased your velocity above that of factory.

    I see your analogy toward a baseball bat selection as you see it, but jurys may not. There is no sweeping prejudice against baseball bats. Cases are won (or lost) in court by an accumulation of evidence, and I believe the admonition against using reloads stems from eliminating one more fragment of accumulated evidence against the shooter. It may be truthfully inapplicable evidence, but nevertheless adds to the pile (especially in the eyes of an uninformed jury). This nonsensical logic might apply as well if you shot with a particularly more "sinister" or "more deadly" weapon.
     
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  18. saxon

    saxon springfield Active Member

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    well my 2 cents after dealing with many a lawyer this last few years some former prosecutors,
    You could get prosecuted either way with reloads or with factory.
    Say I use what cops you and I testify to that is what I was told in my training and one of the gun schools around,

    further questioning finds out that that school teaches police and military.
    Now I am not a cop or military and yet I go take class’s at a school that teaches them I carry cop bullets
    So the case can be made I am a wanna be cop who cant be one so I try and act like one I get training and even carry cop type bullets etc etc

    No matter what you carry it will only be as good as the $$$$$$$$ you have to defend or
    How hard the prosecutor will want to make an example out of you


    Factory ammo I can shoot one brand and get a 5” group
    Take another brand get a 3”group
    Reload and get a 1.5” group
    I have hand dud’s from R&P
    Light and hard loads from fed
    And perfect loads every time all the time from reloads

    Why do some schools not allow reloads because I know some people I will not shoot reloads from because I know they do not do a 1,000% accurate job
     
  19. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    You are right, it was Ayoob. He's been "riding this horse" for years yet when challenged has never been able to give an instance where someone was prosecuted or found guilty because they used hand made ammo. When pushed he brings up the case where he testified as an "expert" witness. The case was the Daniel Bias case where the defendant supposedly woke up and found his wife dead beside him, shot in the head. The defense tried to make a case that since the ammunition was hand loaded it was impossible to compare "spatter patterns" with factory. In short it was not a case of handloads being any issue it was a case of the defense trying to turn a homicide into a suicide. The defendant claimed it was suicide. He was convicted at trial for Reckless Manslaughter.

    Since this trial Ayoob has yet to substantiate his claims regarding "motivated or corrupt Prosecutors, Runaway Juries, etc". Not only no case law, no charges, anywhere.

    The use of Deadly Force is only justified when one is in fear for their life or that of another. The MEANS are not spelled out, only the circumstances when it is allowable.

    BTW Spitpatch, Juries are not "misinformed". Before they begin deliberations they are instructed very carefully as to what evidence they can consider and how they are to view it in formulating their verdict. Consider the fact that even the most benign of handguns today is way more "sinister" or "more deadly" than the weapons of self defense over the ages.
     
  20. scrappydoo

    scrappydoo Federal Way Active Member

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    Interesting thread Deadshot. I've never been a fan of Ayoob. He's a slick talker/writer but comes across as a snake oil salesman to me. If I want weapons training I'll take a course from someone with actual combat experience. If I want legal advice I'll ask a competent local attorney.