Poll: Is pulling the trigger as part of the disassembly process a bad/undesirable design?

[ocarolan]

Everyone here is responding from the viewpoint of themselves having the gun. Of course, you trust yourself to follow the 4 rules.

What if you were a police chief, ordering guns for 200 new cadets?

A military advisor in Afghanistan, training 400 goatherds into policemen?

Safer designs keep other people safer, not just you.

I'm a glock owner, but still think there is room for improvement.

 

[DieselScout]

Everyone here is responding from the viewpoint of themselves having the gun. Of course, you trust yourself to follow the 4 rules.

What if you were a police chief, ordering guns for 200 new cadets?

A military advisor in Afghanistan, training 400 goatherds into policemen?

Safer designs keep other people safer, not just you.

I'm a glock owner, but still think there is room for improvement.

I agree, there is always room for improvement, but the street is a 2 way. You can improve the firearm, or you can improve your people's training. Training safe gun handling is the same, and should be taught the same regardless of weather or not a gun has a safety. In fact, all firearms training should be done with the notion the gun has no safety. And the reason we are all speaking about us, is because I don't think any of us have had to order guns for 200 new cadets or 400 Afghanie nationals, so we have no experience to base that on.


What gets me is this. A manual safety DOES NOT make the gun anymore safe then an internal safety. Manual safeties can often times provide a false sense of security for shooters. Have you ever been swept by a muzzle and had the Neanderthal in the next lane tell you, "it's okay, the safeties on?" I don't care if the safety is on,what he did was very dangerous. New shooter may also not know how to properly work the safety, they may think it's on but really it's off, does the red dot mean it's on or off, is there even a dot? And lastly, safeties fail, safeties get knocked off on accident, safeties get confused for slide locks and safeties don't get used. The safety is not a switch that turns off the safe rules of gun handling. You don't turn the safety on with one in the chamber, point it at your buddies chest and have a conversation with him.

 

[revjen45]

No. It forces you to check by sight and feel beforehand.

 

[rick benjamin]

Wow, more drama then a daytime soap opera!
Point in a safe direction, clear the weapon.

 

[Ligito]

Running ones mouth while disassembling, is not conducive to good safety.
Shut up and do the job.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Netspirit]

I think there is an agreement on the following points:

1. No mechanical device can ever make a firearm completely safe. Anyone handling firearms needs to follow the 4 rules at all times.
2. A design that forces pulling the trigger places the entire risk on the "mind safety".
3. Glocks are good firearms )

We disagree on what should happen when the rules are NOT followed and the "mind safety" fails, and whether the gun manufacturer should attempt to make negligent discharges less likely and less dependent on the momentary state of the "mind safety".

People arguing for NO alternative disassembly procedure claim that the "mind safety" is dependable enough, the imminent danger helps train the person by forcing them to practice the 4 rules, the cost of NDs is acceptable, careless/inexperienced people (and folks unlucky to be around) deserve to die, and the gun community benefits from these "IQ tests".

People in favor of a safer disassembly option (like this: S&W M&P9 (M&P 9mm) - Shooting - Disassembly - Cleaning - YouTube) believe that even the best of us make mistakes, shooters face enough "IQ tests" to practice the 4 rules, careless folks and bystanders deserve a chance, every ND hurts the gun community, and the habit of never pulling the trigger except when firing/dry-firing is actually very consistent with rule 3 - "Keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire" and helps reinforce it.

I do not think we can solve this without statistics on NDs. I will try to dig for some, but I doubt it is easily available.

 

[DieselScout]

We disagree on what should happen when the rules are NOT followed and the "mind safety" fails, and whether the gun manufacturer should attempt to make negligent discharges less likely.

Starting a debate on what happens when rules are not followed is pointless. It's an endless circular argument of "what ifs." If you don't follow the rules, what's to say you're not going to pull the trigger when you disassemble a fire arm weather it's needed or not, after all, we're not following the rules. Loaded magazine and chamber, who cares, I am not following any rules!

People arguing for NO alternative disassembly procedure claim that the "mind safety" is dependable enough, the imminent danger helps train the person by forcing them to practice the 4 rules, the cost of NDs is acceptable, careless/inexperienced people (and folks unlucky to be around) deserve to die, and the gun community benefits from these "IQ tests".

This is what drives me up the walls. Careless or inexperienced people aren't magically "smart" or "careful" because they don't have to pull the trigger. The are careless and inexperienced after all, what's to say they aren't going to pull it anyway? Secondly, step one of cleaning ANY gun is to unload it, step two is to visually and physically verify it is unloaded. The gun should always be pointed in a safe direction for all parties involved, be it someone in the same house, or someone in the same neighborhood. The cost of an ND is NOT acceptable by ANYONE, it's why people should follow the 4 basic rules of safety.

People in favor of a safer disassembly option (like this: S&W M&P9 (M&P 9mm) - Shooting - Disassembly - Cleaning - YouTube) believe that even the best of us make mistakes, shooters face enough "IQ tests" to practice the 4 rules, careless folks and bystanders deserve a chance, every ND hurts the gun community, and the habit of never pulling the trigger except when firing/dry-firing is actually very consistent with rule 3 - "Keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire" and helps reinforce it.

The best of us do make mistakes, that why there is the 4 rules of safety, even if one is violated the others make up for it. Same thing with verifying a gun is unloaded, doubly before I clean it, if it's not unloaded, the 4 basic rules of safety keep me and everyone else safe.

You're basic premise hinges on what you call careless/inexperienced people. Not having to pull the trigger to clean a gun, doesn't magically makes these people any less careless or any less inexperienced. It doesn't make them anymore safe and in the end they are responsible for the firearm they hold and the bullets that come out of it. They need to follow the 4 basic rules of firearms safety and if they are inexperienced they need to get proper training. The 4 basic rules are pretty damn easy to remember, pretty easy to practice and very easy to live by. But, someone who is careless isn't necessarily going to follow those anyway, and if they can't follow those simple rules what makes you think they are going to follow the directions to tear down a firearm?

Lastly, it's sad to say, but you can't fix stupid. Do I want people to die from ND's? No, I absolutely do not, I do not wish that one anyone. However it really isn't up to me, it isn't up to the firearms manufacturer, or you or anyone. It's up to the person who is handling the firearm a the time.

 

[Nwcid]

Well I guess the only way to be truly safe from an AD/ND is not to have guns in the first place.............


Green is the color of sarcasm.

 

[DieselScout]

Well I guess the only way to be truly safe from an AD/ND is not to have guns in the first place.............

I am locking myself in the bathroom, the world is scary. Course I may drown in the shower, or toilet. I might blind myself with shampoo or hairspray. I may poison myself with the acetone my wife uses to remove nail polish. I may poke out my eye with a nail file. Damn, who knew the bathroom could be so dangerous!

 

[MountainBear]

Everyone here is responding from the viewpoint of themselves having the gun. Of course, you trust yourself to follow the 4 rules.

What if you were a police chief, ordering guns for 200 new cadets?

A military advisor in Afghanistan, training 400 goatherds into policemen?

Safer designs keep other people safer, not just you.

I'm a glock owner, but still think there is room for improvement.

Regardless of who I was training, I would damn well make sure they knew the basic rules of firearms safety before handing them ANY firearm. Perhaps there is room for improvement, but perhaps its not the safety of the nuts in the gun, but the safety of the nuts behind the gun that have the most room.

 

[hatchj]

Everyone here is responding from the viewpoint of themselves having the gun. Of course, you trust yourself to follow the 4 rules.

What if you were a police chief, ordering guns for 200 new cadets?

A military advisor in Afghanistan, training 400 goatherds into policemen?

Safer designs keep other people safer, not just you.

I'm a glock owner, but still think there is room for improvement.

I would hope they were trained in their manual of arms before given ammo. I know that's what our military does, and I'd assume similar in the many police academies.

I don't really see this as an issue. Point in a safe direction, visually and physically confirm the chamber is clear. Then break the weapon down. I see less safety concerns there than if you were to give someone a car after drivers ed.

 

[Modeler]

If you are to stupid to disassemble a weapon because of pulling the trigger, you are just plan to stupid to operate that gun at ANY time.

If you follow the safety rules there is no problem.

Maybe just maybe they did it that way so Darwin will have a chance.

Exactly.

 

[ConcealedCarrie]

Not practical for everyone all the time, but as an extra precaution I am in the habit of field-stripping my Glocks at the range, so I always do my trigger pull there.

I just spell off my carry gun so I have one to get me home.

 

[Mr. Ben]

No
/thread

This.

Always clear a weapon before doing any maintenance/cleaning. It's firearms safety 101, not difficult.

 

[husker]

Not that many people own one but an m2 50 cal you have to poll the triger to take the gun appart or you could be killed or serious injury. The main sprin is on a rod that goes the length of the bolt and has a pin that fits in the back plate. If you try to take the plate off the spring and rod will shoot out the back. My instructor in the army told me of a guy that did this and the rod and spring shot in his chest. dont know if it was true but it made the point.