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Ya' see now we're getting away from my opinion and you've introduced bullet types, etc. into the conversation. I assure you that I've seen enemy combatants shot through the walls of buildings (concrete block) and the wounds were through and through. The U.S. Military isn't going to use any round that would be stopped by a wall made of plasterboard. So we're talking about apples and oranges, ballistic data and projectiles, not FMJ's in rifle and pistol cartridges and certainly not lasers.
Very few US military rounds will go through reinforced/filled concrete blocks or typical Adobe construction you see in the Middle East with the exception of .50 cal API, and even then, sometimes you aren't getting through.

Its a huge issue and why its important to have 25 or 30MM on standby, or an AT4/Jav/CarlG for punching through.

There are some modern rounds that do better, but they are generally specialized and only SOCOM gets them due to cost and low production numbers.

Bullets from squad weapons generally are not good at turning cover into concealment.
 
This is almost always true. Some bullet comps like Solid Copper and certain bonded rounds will have more penetration but generally at the velocity most AR rounds are shot, they fragment when hitting a hard surface/body.

Its one of the many reasons an AR is always a preferable to a shotgun or pistol for inside work.
Again, I suggest that you are addressing bullet types. Ball ammunition doesn't "fragment." Look at photographs of bullet strikes in drive-by shootings. They show penetration not fragmentation. My references and anecdotal information is about the things that I've experienced and have helped form my opinion. Not those things that I haven't any experience with. Of course the ultimate test is both of us standing behind drywalls and seeing which of us gets killed first!
 
Very few US military rounds will go through reinforced/filled concrete blocks or typical Adobe construction you see in the Middle East with the exception of .50 cal API, and even then, sometimes you aren't getting through.

Its a huge issue and why its important to have 25 or 30MM on standby, or an AT4/Jav/CarlG for punching through.

There are some modern rounds that do better, but they are generally specialized and only SOCOM gets them due to cost and low production numbers.

Bullets from squad weapons generally are not good at turning cover into concealment.
I'm not referencing fortified positions that have been preplanned and then built. I'm talking about concrete block. Plain ol' 8"X16" (I think that's right) concrete block.
 
Again, I suggest that you are addressing bullet types. Ball ammunition doesn't "fragment." Look at photographs of bullet strikes in drive-by shootings. They show penetration not fragmentation. My references and anecdotal information is about the things that I've experienced and have helped form my opinion. Not those things that I haven't any experience with. Of course the ultimate test is both of us standing behind drywalls and seeing which of us gets killed first!
Sorry bub you are 100% Wrong.

So wrong in fact, you are missing the point.

M193 is desirable due to fragmenting at longer distances than M855. This is due to bullet comp but mostly velocity difference. Its also why common 5.56 rounds perform better from a M16 than an M4 or Mk18. A M16 with M193 will reliably frag out to almost 200 yards. M885 maybe a 1/3 of that and even less with the MK18 if it does at all. Its one of the reasons more reliable bullets were developed such as the SOST and MK318, along with units using Mk262 in their short guns after they discoved it performs way better on targets than M855.

Your references are either wrong or out of context.
 
I don't like rails and stuff on my pistols either. My blaster Hi-Power did come with a CT laser.. I don't mind having it on there. It DID come with Xpress sights with a big dot front and I like that a lot.
If you like it then leave it on there! I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from tossing their lights and lasers. I just see no need for them for me.
 
I'm not referencing fortified positions that have been preplanned and then built. I'm talking about concrete block. Plain ol' 8"X16" (I think that's right) concrete block.
These aren't fortified positions, its normal building construction methods in most of the world. Even in Europe its an issue due to their use of thick poured concrete construction even on new construction. One of the reasons their buildings last hundreds of years.

The US is an anomaly with our wood framed and drywall construction.
 
These aren't fortified positions, its normal building construction methods in most of the world. Even in Europe its an issue due to their use of thick poured concrete construction even on new construction. One of the reasons their buildings last hundreds of years.

The US is an anomaly with our wood framed and drywall construction.
Ah, as a retired Mechanical Engineer that has traveled extensively around the world, I would say that concrete block without mortar and rebar fill is the most prevalent building material in 3rd world countries, hence the high death toll when natural disasters strike these poor unfortunates.
 
Lasers look cool tho

Lasers are for people that don't really know mich about firearms. They are slow, sloppy and inaccurate. Learn to shoot with irons. The "cat toy" on the end of the gun don't make it any better. Worse actually.
 
Sorry bub you are 100% Wrong.

So wrong in fact, you are missing the point.

M193 is desirable due to fragmenting at longer distances than M855. This is due to bullet comp but mostly velocity difference. Its also why common 5.56 rounds perform better from a M16 than an M4 or Mk18. A M16 with M193 will reliably frag out to almost 200 yards. M885 maybe a 1/3 of that and even less with the MK18 if it does at all. Its one of the reasons more reliable bullets were developed such as the SOST and MK318, along with units using Mk262 in their short guns after they discoved it performs way better on targets than M855.

Your references are either wrong or out of context.
You are entitled to your opinion, but please don't tell me that what I've seen and done are wrong. That's just juvenile. You were probably in the military but not as a a grunt and your observations about walls is pure nonsense in my opinion. So I'm done discussing the issue of my opinions with you. All the best.
 
Handguns are so-so, IMO, we used to use something like this when we got into a 'bad' room situation -

 
I'm not going to argue anyone's experience or opinions here but will add:

civilian use doesn't compare to military or police use so it has to be an apple to oranges debate.

Most firearm owners do not CC their HD firearms and in a home you are living in you have the home advantage so you should know how many wall or lack there of you will be shooting thru/at...

I like my shotgun and AR loaded with Ammo for my space.

CC usage didn't seem to be the topic so I'm not even going to start in on that.

If one option was universally the best then there would not be so many gun/bullet options.

Just my 2¢
 
I have never been "worried" about the ammo I use for home use. Figure chances of me having to ever again shoot someone in the home are very slim. So if I do chances of a miss hitting someone else are getting into the astronomical. Look how many gun fights LEO's get into where a LOT of rounds are fired. I often watch these later wondering where the hell did all those missed rounds end up? I am sure it has to have happened but never seem to read of a stray finding the wrong person other than all the stories of scum spraying lead at each other who hit someone else. With the scum and how they shoot I am often surprised they manage to hit each other as much as they do.
So at home I have shoulder fired guns to rely on which would be my first choice. One one thing I have found in decades of shooting though is a hell of a lot of people can NOT shoot anything like they talk about it. I have seen a few, VERY few, really good shooters who could shoot without sights. Some of them make it look almost like magic they are so damn good. What I see all the time is someone who claims they can, get them to a range and they can't stay on paper at 30 feet this way. This at paper that is not moving and not shooting back. I have tried a LOT to point shoot. Never could get good enough at it to trust my life to it. Then again I tried a lot of things that I was never going to be a pro at. Now my eye's don't work nearly as well as they did decades ago with irons. So I am big on lasers. Every time I hear many say they are toys? Could care less for me. As far as I know I don't own a piece of any of the places making them so don't care if other don't want one. ALL my house guns wear one. They all wear a light too. Keep the home with enough lights scattered around to see if I wake up in the night but every time the power dies here it's like suddenly being in a damn cave. Couple times my cell phone came in handy to find a damn flashlight :D
So my house guns come with a light too. Again the stories that the dobad is going to shoot the light? Most of the dobads can not hit what they shoot at, they make hits by dumb luck and a lot of firing so by all means, let them try to shoot the light. If they miss I will not so I win. Again this is a to each his own. Most will go their life and never have to shoot any two legged critters. For those who watch too much TV and tell others they can point shoot when they can't? Well most likely they will never have to bet their life on it so again no harm no foul. :cool:
 
Lasers are for people that don't really know mich about firearms. They are slow, sloppy and inaccurate. Learn to shoot with irons. The "cat toy" on the end of the gun don't make it any better. Worse actually.
My GF said I couldn't play with the cats like that, don't know why.
 
You are entitled to your opinion, but please don't tell me that what I've seen and done are wrong. That's just juvenile. You were probably in the military but not as a a grunt and your observations about walls is pure nonsense in my opinion. So I'm done discussing the issue of my opinions with you. All the best.
Your right spending 18 months in Iraq kicking down doors and as a 50cal/mk19 gunner and actually reading AARs and incorporating it into training cycle, But you know more cuz you read about a drive by. Gotcha

Feel free to refute with facts, not feelings.
 
Ah, as a retired Mechanical Engineer that has traveled extensively around the world, I would say that concrete block without mortar and rebar fill is the most prevalent building material in 3rd world countries, hence the high death toll when natural disasters strike these poor unfortunates.
Define 3rd world countries. We aren't fighting in Hati and the pacific islands. The places we actually do fight, it's an issue. You would know this if you actually went there or were in combat. Oh well.
 
I think the main take away from this, is that it is opinion not fact. Each shooter will find what works for them, hopefully they will never have to find out if they were right or wrong.

As for shooting a shotgun from the hip, not a chance. Inside a residence w average distances of 12ft, your spread will be about the size of a baseball. Now, if you had a laser on the shotgun.......:rolleyes:
 
K.I.S.S.
It is always the best solution to every problem! None of my hand guns have any doodads, rails, or other add on's! Outside of good night sights, I keep them as simple as possible! No amount of training will solve your problems when things get sporty and you have to use what you have, nothing will get you hurt or killed faster then fumbling about trying to get up and in action! Same with most rifles outside of a specific and narrow use, more crap is more that can go wrong, and when seconds count, 3200 FPS wins every single time!
Lights and Lasers are a modern band-aid to pizz poor training, and are of no use or excuse! Learn it, Live it, Love it, or Leave it, there is no second place, only the first looser, and that dude is usually lying in the dirt in a puddle of his own making!
 
I think the main take away from this, is that it is opinion not fact. Each shooter will find what works for them, hopefully they will never have to find out if they were right or wrong.

As for shooting a shotgun from the hip, not a chance. Inside a residence w average distances of 12ft, your spread will be about the size of a baseball. Now, if you had a laser on the shotgun.......:rolleyes:

One of the biggest gun misconceptions out there. "Just point it and shoot" Makes me think people have never actually patterned their shotguns.
 
Or let's say you were too fat and lazy and or your ammo might not go through your windshield too good, just stick your arm out and Bob's your uncle.

How in the bubblegum did YOU know Bob's my uncle?

Are you spying on me?

CC2F641E-638D-419A-B357-BD42CA80568B.jpeg
 

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