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Is it legal to assemble an SBR?

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by blizzardscout2, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. blizzardscout2

    blizzardscout2 Snohomish Member

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    I know the new law allows the ownership of an SBR, but I have not found a clear answer as to whether it is legal or not to essentially manufacture an SBR. Basically I want to SBR my PS90 by sending my barrel to TROS to have it cut down to 10.4" and send it back to me to install (of course I would only send it after I receive an approved Form 1).

    The other option I considered is to have a Spectre II pinned and welded after I have my barrel cut down and threaded by my FFL. I have no desire to own a 22 rifle or pistol so I don't care about removing it.
     
  2. Classic

    Classic Federal Way WA Well-Known Member

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    You have to have a trust and submit a form 1 (I think that's the form) and it has to be approved. Then you can build one. It's the same hassle ya get to go through for a suppressor in this state.
     
  3. blizzardscout2

    blizzardscout2 Snohomish Member

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    I understand the ATF process, but the SBR law isn't clear to me that in WA state law is it legal if I have a Form 1 to manufacture (have barrel length reduced and install myself) SBR.
     
  4. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    You don't HAVE to have a trust, it's just WAY faster with a trust and the eforms website.

    No, it is not legal to manufacture an SBR in Washington.
    SB 5956 of 2013-2014 as enacted in to law:
    http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2013-14/Pdf/Bills/Senate Passed Legislature/5956.PL.pdf

    Key text:
    it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;

    It is not unlawful for a person to possess, transport, acquire, or transfer a short-barreled rifle that is legally registered and possessed, transported, acquired, or transferred in accordance with federal law.
     
    308 likes this.
  5. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    If you talk to Mark he will probably offer you the option of handling all the NFA paperwork, receiver marking, etc. I don't mean to speak for him, only that he made the offer to me previously.
     
  6. SCARed

    SCARed Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Quoting the law only, not replying to Norm's comments...
    And probably 95-98% of the people doing a Form 1, ignore it for the following reasons among others,
    1) The ATF has stated as far as they are concerned, if it's legal to own a SBR, its legal to build a SBR.
    2) The authors of the law have stated this was a wording error when submitted, and was not the intent.

    ANY and EVERY time you put a short upper onto the registered lower, you are making a SBR. So people will tell you that once you get your stamp, to take the short upper and the registered lower into OR and mate them there. Well, that works initially, but anytime you take it apart, for whatever reason, and put it back together, you are making a SBR again. So that means what...anytime your finished cleaning your weapon, your going to drive to OR and put the upper back onto the lower? I don't think so.

    Remember, ANYTIME the firearm is NOT in a NFA configuration, it is NOT under the pervue of the NFA.
     
    The Heretic likes this.
  7. blizzardscout2

    blizzardscout2 Snohomish Member

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    Thanks everyone, that helped clear things up.
     
  8. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    Huh, well the BATFE and Washingtonians seem to disagree. BATFE has been denying Form 1's for the last 5 months from Washington on SBRs. You can do a quick search to see threads stretching back to August with guys talking about how their Form 1's are getting denied.

    Honestly, if you think bubbleguming around with breaking NFA laws is worth never owning a firearm ever again, spending time in federal prison, and a quarter of a million dollars in fines, then by all means proceed. I would on the other hand recommend caution. But hey, some people still think they can get one over on the ATF "cause they know better."

    To the point about manufacturing an SBR every time you put an upper on, that is completely false. Once the lower receiver is registered as an SBR, it's an SBR in the eyes of the BATFE until you have it removed from the registry. Futhermore, you can't throw a 16" barreled upper on it and suddenly it's not an SBR. It doesn't matter what upper receiver is on it.

    Where do people come up with these wild theories about NFA laws? If you don't know what you are talking about don't go spreading random stupid incorrect information. Someone will end up in prison because COMPLETELY false info they read.
     
  9. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    godspyro and misplacedtexan like this.
  10. SCARed

    SCARed Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Norm, your wrong on all accounts. ATF HAS NOT been denying Form 1's for WA residents. I should know, I've had 2 approved in that time. I have yet to hear of one being denied strictly because someone is a WA resident.

    And in regards to your "once a SBR always a SBR", you might want to look at the AFTs own SBR FAQ. I'd link it, but I'm tired of doing so. EDIT: looks like NWCID already did.

    And as far as the ATF goes, when you Form 1 a firearm, you are MAKING, not MANUFACTURING. There is a big difference to the ATF.

    As you put "Where do people come up with these wild theories about NFA laws? If you don't know what you are talking about don't go spreading random stupid incorrect information. Someone will end up in prison because COMPLETELY false info they read". Do yourself a favor and follow your own advice.
     
  11. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    You're right SCARed, there is a difference in the NFA between "Make" and Manufacture. Washington law only says "manufacture" therefore the act of "making" it is not illegal. Therefore, after the initial construction unless you are changing the upper receiver permanently, it's not manufacturing.

    If you've gotten form 1's then maybe either A), Susan, who was issuing denials, has reversed course, or B) one of the other investigators is mistakenly approving them. There was the incident last year where one of the new investigators approved several form 1 machine guns. However, if you got yours then maybe someone in WA called ATF and got it straightened out.

    As far as the No longer an SBR part, unless you are selling the SBR components and the change is "permanent" it's still an SBR. You can read the FAQ yourself. "If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations." You are giving off the impression that you can just swap uppers and suddenly you are okay and that's not the case. I guess if you decided to sell your short barrel then yes, you'd be correct.
     
  12. SCARed

    SCARed Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Again, no. Your interpretation is not correct. Sorry.
     
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  13. blizzardscout2

    blizzardscout2 Snohomish Member

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    And from what I gathered in the FAQ, you can change out the barrel or upper temporarily for hunting. That appeals to me if I wanted to have an SBR AR, but have a longer length 30o BLK upper for hunting.
     
  14. misplacedtexan

    misplacedtexan Beaverton, OR Active Member

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    I-like-where-this-thread-is-going-2.jpg

    All it takes is one mis-informed man sticking to his guns and the whole community of the NFA falls to shambles.
     
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  15. JCRUZ1724

    JCRUZ1724 Guest

    I made a profile, just answer the simple question please. Can I SBR a rifle legally in Washington state as of November 2015 or are form 1s getting denied? Thanks in advance
     
  16. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    Form 1's have been denied since spring 2015.

    You cant "build" one yourself. You can buy one or have one built by a licensed shop.
     
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  17. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    ^^THIS

    From the perspective of the ATF anyway, that is the law. I think - IANAL - but there are FAQs on the ATF website that tend to support this - IMO.
     
  18. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    This too is correct and the other side of the page.

    As long as the barrel and rifle are in your "possession".

    I believe - IIRC from reading an ATF FAQ - that if you are not in physical possession of the short barrel, then your firearm is not an SBR at that point.

    E.G., you could put a long barrel upper on the rifle, go hunting in another state where SBRs are not legal, leaving your short barrel at home or with another person, and the state you traveled to cannot prosecute you for owning an SBR since it isn't in the SBR configuration.
     
    Norm0931 likes this.
  19. JCRUZ1724

    JCRUZ1724 Guest

    Well that sucks,
    So, your telling me that I can file a form 1 to SBR a rifle here? Please if someone that actually tried to do this within the last 2 months let me know. I feel that this thread is "what I think" kind of thread, not so much what has been done.
     
  20. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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    All form 1's have been denied in Washington since about April of 2015. I filled one in Febuary that was denied in May.
     
    Norm0931 likes this.