Is anyone here interested in building an AK?

[etrain16]

As many here may remember that this whole deal started with Ares Arms in Oceanside, CA by selling people 80% AR lowers and letting them push the button on their CNC machine to circumvent having a manufacturers license.

As for the ATF Letter posted in the link above, nowhere does it state that people may not loan each other tools to create a firearm. It says that a business (including an association or society) or any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process may not let people use their equipment.

I think this means that @IronMonster probably would go to jail for letting us use his shop and/or equipment, but if a group of people met in someones garage that wasn't "in the business" and had a build party and loaned each other tools, they would be OK.

As I'm not a lawyer or scholor please correct me if I missed something in this letter that proves that I'm wrong.


Ray

PS, if there is going to be a build party (especially for newbies) please wait or schedule another one in/or after mid June, so I can attend.

If one happens, I suspect there will be more

 

[Koda]

As many here may remember that this whole deal started with Ares Arms in Oceanside, CA by selling people 80% AR lowers and letting them push the button on their CNC machine to circumvent having a manufacturers license.

As for the ATF Letter posted in the link above, nowhere does it state that people may not loan each other tools to create a firearm. It says that a business (including an association or society) or any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process may not let people use their equipment.

I think this means that @IronMonster probably would go to jail for letting us use his shop and/or equipment, but if a group of people met in someones garage that wasn't "in the business" and had a build party and loaned each other tools, they would be OK.

As I'm not a lawyer or scholar please correct me if I missed something in this letter that proves that I'm wrong.


Ray

PS, if there is going to be a build party (especially for newbies) please wait or schedule another one in/or after mid June, so I can attend.

I guess what Im not clear on is what qualifies as an "unlicensed machine shop" would that be a home mechanic or individual who lets you come over and use his machinery or fixtures for free (AKA "build party")? i.e.: not someone who owns a business or shop?

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

 

[Slobray]

I guess what Im not clear on is what qualifies as an "unlicensed machine shop" would that be a home mechanic or individual who lets you come over and use his machinery or fixtures for free (AKA "build party")? i.e.: not someone who owns a business or shop?

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

I'm reading it as them being machine shops that are unlicensed to manufacture firearms because of this section of the letter:

Machining or Other Manufacturing of Frames or Receivers
Because the GCA contains distinct definitions of "firearm," one can be a manufacturer of a "frame or receiver," and also a "weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive" that incorporates that frame or receiver.
See Broughman, 624 F.3d at 676 n.4 ("That Broughman manufactures 'firearms' within the meaning of one statutory definition rather than another does not render him any less a manufacturer of 'firearms' within the meaning of the Act.") ATF Ruling 2010-10 assumes that licensed dealer-gunsmiths would perform certain activities on articles already classified as frames or receivers (i.e., no machining or other processes required to allow it to be used to assemble a weapon), such as assembly and applying special coatings and treatments. Implicit is the understanding that the manufacture of the frame or receiver was completed (for example, having an existing fire-control cavity), and it was marked by a licensed manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.
However, when a person performs machining or other manufacturing process on a blank to make a firearm "frame or receiver," or on an existing frame or receiver to make it suitable for use 1 part of a "weapon ... which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive," that person has performed a manufacturing operation other than what is contemplated by the GCA of dealer-gunsmiths, i.e., persons described by section 921(a)(11)(B) as "engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms." In this context, "machining or other manufacturing process" includes making a frame or receiver, or taking any of the steps to make an existing frame or receiver functional – that is, suitable for use as part of a weapon that will expel a projectile by the action of an explosive.2 For example, in an AR-type weapon, "machining or other manufacturing process" would include any activity that creates a fire-control-cavity as designed. Although such an article may be classified as a "receiver" when it is indexed, machining or other manufacturing process takes place to create a receiver when material is actually removed from the cavity so that the fire-control-components may actually be installed.

The activities discussed in ATF Ruling 2010-10 are not the manufacturing processes to create the firearm frame or receiver, or any of the steps that allow the frame or receiver to function when assembled into a complete weapon on behalf of non-licensed individuals. To the contrary, those gunsmithing activities are explicitly required to be done on behalf of a licensed manufacturer or importer who are required by 27 CFR 478.92(a)(2) to mark and serialize the frame or receiver prior to shipment to the gunsmith. As explained by the ruling, "[t]his will ensure that the frames or receivers can be traced by ATF in the event they are lost or stolen during the manufacturing process." This distinction is also legally significant because manufacturing processes that create essential features, depending on the type of firearm, are necessary for the frame or receiver to function as part of a complete "weapon." At this stage of production, the frame or receiver is different from one that a licensed gunsmith may receive and perform gunsmithing services because these manufacturing processes make the frame or receiver suitable for use in assembling a "weapon" under the GCA.

But as I stated earlier, I'm no expert.


Ray

 

[Koda]

so an actual machine shop place of business, not a "home garage shop".... it cold go both ways? I kinda get a headache reading it.

 

[etrain16]

so an actual machine shop place of business, not a "home garage shop".... it cold go both ways? I kinda get a headache reading it.

That's the government for you They just LOVE the grey areas.

It would be fairly easy to clarify the language to remove the ambiguous references and terms, but they don't seem to like to do that. As an electrician, we are constantly debating the code because of grey areas like these. When there is debate about the application and meaning of a rule, if there is dispute, it falls on the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) to make the final call, and their decision is final. I suspect, when it comes to these rules, any ambiguity will ultimately be ruled upon by the ATF. It might even be worth asking an ATF regional office for a ruling to be certain before scheduling anything. Best thing would be to get it in writing.

 

[shadowex275]

Some great information here. Thanks guys.


Back to the OP's original question: I am interested in building an AK thru a parts kit and would be interested in buying the necessary tools and jigs to complete the build. Then I would be willing to sell them to the next guy who wants to do a build.


Buying and reselling all the tools may be the safety legal way to avoid any entanglements with the ATF.

 

[KTM530XCW]

I'm curious how "renting tools" fits their legal jargon. Renting gives some ownership rights.

 

[KTM530XCW]

Because then i could legally rent your cnc and push a button.

 

[KTM530XCW]

Atf is 100% in the wrong on this one (but I'm not going to tell them that)

 

[bolus]

I am a 007 manufacture

Q, is that you? How much to get an Aston Martin V8 Vantage with some missiles for headlights?

 

[David J]

I wish but no I just manufacture target 22 pistols

 

[BlindedByScience]

I'm in if a few like minded individuals want to get together and put some together. I'd like to learn how to do this. Happy to bring my own tools, jigs, etc. as needed.

 

[PBinWA]

I've come close a couple of times but I have more use with pistols. I need to realise the days of knowing you could exercise your constitutional freedom at any time are over.
and yes, duracoat would work just fine.

I've seen glock and 1911 80% lowers.

 

[Koda]

interesting to know there are 80% glocks....

can anyone list the total jig and fixture cost to build a complete AK? (roughly...)

 

[etrain16]

interesting to know there are 80% glocks....

can anyone list the total jig and fixture cost to build a complete AK? (roughly...)

Let's tag @Contract_Pilot on that question - he sells that stuff at gun shows and stocks all the parts you would need. Not sure if he'll be able to post prices, but it's worth asking. He may prefer PM for that information.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

Yes, I have stock of tool's, flats, etc. PM me will fill you in. I will also be at the PDX Gun show this weekend 18-19-20th.

 

[JimBob]

I am not known to have a lot of patience, so I went ahead an ordered a complete %100 receiver and a screw build kit. When this group gets it "poop" together, the I will then change it over to a proper rivet built AK. $60 for a 100% receiver (Polish AKMS), $5 for screw kit, and $10 FFL is not a bad price for my impatience.

I am still looking forward to a build party, should it ever happen.

 

[DuneHopper]

Id be interested but I am like some others pretty far away.

 

[hobomatt]

I live in Colorado Springs.....Sure wish this sort of get-together would happen here! I do enjoy learning from this forum.

 

[stevenceo]

Is anyone here interested in building an AK?

The reason I ask, is I have a collection of building tools and all the correct rivets one could need, but before I go through the process of laying it all out and posting an add, I'd like to test the waters and see if we have members here who might be interested building their own.

Thanks

I'm a newbie also. I'm in Salem. My brother & I were planning to go to the show in pdx. Will you be there & we might bend your ear about this. I'm seriously interested. Steven