Is anyone here interested in building an AK?

[KTM530XCW]

That's the link to a recent atf letter on the subject

 

[Koda]

I wonder why the ATF would care if friends share tools? People do that all the time for a wide variety of reasons. Just seems like an unnecessary complication for an otherwise completely legal procedure. And yes, I know it's the government, so maybe that's the only answer that's needed.

its called gun control. The antis are scared that technology will get easier (it is...) for prohibited persons (felons) to manufacture your own guns, currently legal, without going thru an FFL (background check). I'm not saying I agree with this, just stating what it is that's going on. I've looked into building my own AR 80% lower and the only caveat is the initial tooling cost isn't worth the cost of a new 100% lower thru an FFL for just one gun.... hence the "build parties" and tool sharing.
I didn't bookmark any sources, but the last time I checked, DavidJ's information on sharing tooling was correct, as far as I understood the new ruling. 80% AR or AK... doesn't matter. Heck there are even 80% 1911 and 10-22 tooling and jigs out there.... doesn't matter.

 

[IronMonster]

Ok, I guess the next question is in the year since the new ruling has anyone been charged? Are they going after friends sharing tools.

Granted the ATF is not a entity I want to cross or tempt and my natural instinct is to stay well in established conventions but it's also clear the rule was put forth to stop CNC shops from providing the "start button push" manufacture of a 80% AR lower.

I have no desire to be a test case, however I would like to build an AK, have quite a bit of fab skill and 80% AR experience but barely could assemble an AK out of high quality pre manufactured already done bits (I put together one of the PSA AK's, that is the totality of my experience)

 

[KTM530XCW]

So how about if i "rent" my friends equipment and do the work without any help?

 

[Koda]

however I would like to build an AK, have quite a bit of fab skill and 80% AR experience but barely could assemble an AK out of high quality pre manufactured already done bits (I put together one of the PSA AK's, that is the totality of my experience)

I think everything you would need can be found here:
http://ak-builder.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=239

I think you can either start from a flat which comes with all the holes/cutouots or from an 80% and drill your holes. They sell forming jigs and drill fixtures for either.

 

[etrain16]

its called gun control. The antis are scared that technology will get easier (it is...) for prohibited persons (felons) to manufacture your own guns, currently legal, without going thru an FFL (background check). I'm not saying I agree with this, just stating what it is that's going on. I've looked into building my own AR 80% lower and the only caveat is the initial tooling cost isn't worth the cost of a new 100% lower thru an FFL for just one gun.... hence the "build parties" and tool sharing.
I didn't bookmark any sources, but the last time I checked, DavidJ's information on sharing tooling was correct, as far as I understood the new ruling. 80% AR or AK... doesn't matter. Heck there are even 80% 1911 and 10-22 tooling and jigs out there.... doesn't matter.

Well it seems if gun control is their ultimate goal with this rule, wouldn't it just be a lot easier to do away with the allowance for an 80% build in the first place? This rule won't stop most people, it might just slow some folks down a bit. It's hardly gun control, more like gun inconvenience. Not to mention the fact that it could be downright impossible to prove someone used someone else's tools unless you were there to witness it for yourself.

I'm with @IronMonster, I have absolutely no desire to cross the ATF, it's not worth it. But if this is their attempt at some kind of gun control, it just seems half-hearted at best.

 

[KTM530XCW]

Point. Two groups i will never fukc with:
ATF
IRS

They are govt sanctioned mofias

 

[etrain16]

Point. Two groups i will never fukc with:
ATF
IRS

They are govt sanctioned mofias

I have said for years you never mess with the IRS or the mafia, I suppose the ATF can be lumped in there too. Too much power, too much control and too much chance of getting the Jimmy Hoffa treatment if you don't pay your respect

 

[Koda]

Well it seems if gun control is their ultimate goal with this rule, wouldn't it just be a lot easier to do away with the allowance for an 80% build in the first place? This rule won't stop most people, it might just slow some folks down a bit. It's hardly gun control, more like gun inconvenience. Not to mention the fact that it could be downright impossible to prove someone used someone else's tools unless you were there to witness it for yourself.

I'm with @IronMonster, I have absolutely no desire to cross the ATF, it's not worth it. But if this is their attempt at some kind of gun control, it just seems half-hearted at best.

I hear ya, its just my opinion and I could be wrong about the gun control aspect. If I recall correctly this came into the limelight because a CNC shop started selling 80% AR lowers, but allowed their customers to come in on Saturdays and personally clamp the lower in their CNC and push the button... as part of the purchase. Thanks alot guys, as if you couldn't see far enough down the road to know where that would go.

 

[Velzey]

Not to mention the fact that it could be downright impossible to prove someone used someone else's tools unless you were there to witness it for yourself.

And this is why you build with your friends in your underwear! So you know who is wearing the wire!
Well that and building AK's in your underwear is just good fun....

 

[IronMonster]

And this is why you build with your friends in your underwear! So you know who is wearing the wire!
Well that and building AK's in your underwear is just good fun....

It would be far more interesting if it was mandatory everyone brought a wife or girlfriend

 

[etrain16]

its called gun control. The antis are scared that technology will get easier (it is...) for prohibited persons (felons) to manufacture your own guns, currently legal, without going thru an FFL (background check). I'm not saying I agree with this, just stating what it is that's going on. I've looked into building my own AR 80% lower and the only caveat is the initial tooling cost isn't worth the cost of a new 100% lower thru an FFL for just one gun.... hence the "build parties" and tool sharing.
I didn't bookmark any sources, but the last time I checked, DavidJ's information on sharing tooling was correct, as far as I understood the new ruling. 80% AR or AK... doesn't matter. Heck there are even 80% 1911 and 10-22 tooling and jigs out there.... doesn't matter.

I would think what you need for an 80% AR would be easier than for an AK - no press, no welding, no riveting. Really if you have a hand drill, you can do most of it with a good jig and the bits. A small router/trimmer would be better. I imagine it wouldn't be tough or questionable to borrow a small trim router from a buddy.

 

[etrain16]

And this is why you build with your friends in your underwear! So you know who is wearing the wire!
Well that and building AK's in your underwear is just good fun....

Trust me, you DO NOT want to see me in my underwear

 

[Koda]

I would think what you need for an 80% AR would be easier than for an AK - no press, no welding, no riveting. Really if you have a hand drill, you can do most of it with a good jig and the bits. A small router/trimmer would be better. I imagine it wouldn't be tough or questionable to borrow a small trim router from a buddy.

from what I've looked into you are correct. For reasons I'd rather build an AK but you also have to spotweld the extractor into the lower, you need a barrell press and rivets for the trunion... although I read somewhere its possible to use bolts but...

or for about a mere $150 you can buy the jigs to finish an 80% AR lower everything else is plug and play...
this one comes with qty:2 80% lowers in case you $%^& up your first one: https://www.80-lower.com/80-lower-80-jig-combo-forged-raw-2-pack/

 

[etrain16]

from what I've looked into you are correct. For reasons I'd rather build an AK but you also have to spotweld the extractor into the lower, you need a barrell press and rivets for the trunion... although I read somewhere its possible to use bolts but...

or for about a mere $150 you can buy the jigs to finish an 80% AR lower everything else is plug and play...
this one comes with qty:2 80% lowers in case you $%^& up your first one: https://www.80-lower.com/80-lower-80-jig-combo-forged-raw-2-pack/

Here is another one - it includes the jig, a lower and the bits you need to finish it. https://www.80-lower.com/80-lower-8...3-Section Slider&utm_campaign=Homepage Slider $234.95 with free shipping. And once you have the jig/bits, you can use them to finish more later.

 

[Koda]

Here is another one - it includes the jig, a lower and the bits you need to finish it. https://www.80-lower.com/80-lower-80-lower-jig-easy-jig-drill-bits-black/?utm_source=Homepage Slider&utm_medium=Banner&utm_content=3-Section Slider&utm_campaign=Homepage Slider $234.95 with free shipping. And once you have the jig/bits, you can use them to finish more later.

yes, that one is anodized so when your done only the FCG holes and pocket you drilled out are untreated. Whats interesting is that site is backlogged with orders.... interesting that many people are investing in this when you can buy a new complete lower thru an FFL for as little as $60.

Which leads to the stupidity of this ATF ruling.... if a prohibited person wanted to circumvent the law its only about a $110 more inconvenience to buy his own tooling (if he picked the $150 kit). Thats not much of a deterrent at all to anyone willing to go this route.

 

[etrain16]

yes, that one is anodized so when your done only the FCG holes and pocket you drilled out are untreated. Whats interesting is that site is backlogged with orders.... interesting that many people are investing in this when you can buy a new complete lower thru an FFL for as little as $60.

Which leads to the stupidity of this ATF ruling.... if a prohibited person wanted to circumvent the law its only about a $110 more inconvenience to buy his own tooling (if he picked the $150 kit). Thats not much of a deterrent at all to anyone willing to go this route.

True, but it's exactly why the site is backlogged. People want the right to build their own - no FFL, no ATF, no tracking with a serial number. That's worth the added premium for some folks, and it appears it's a grown number of folks. I have to say, considering what legislators are doing right now to our rights, I find I am better understanding their reasons every day. Honestly, if it weren't for Obama and his ilk, there probably wouldn't even be an 80% market, yet, under him, it's a growing and blossoming industry.

As for the unfinished areas, well, I'd personally consider that another step in the process, something I can learn more about. Maybe cerakoat, durakoat or some other option. It's certainly easier to buy one, but building one has the added benefit of learning new skills, and that's a bonus worth more than what you spent for the extra components, since it will stay with you the rest of your life.

 

[Koda]

True, but it's exactly why the site is backlogged. People want the right to build their own - no FFL, no ATF, no tracking with a serial number. That's worth the added premium for some folks, and it appears it's a grown number of folks. I have to say, considering what legislators are doing right now to our rights, I find I am better understanding their reasons every day. Honestly, if it weren't for Obama and his ilk, there probably wouldn't even be an 80% market, yet, under him, it's a growing and blossoming industry.

As for the unfinished areas, well, I'd personally consider that another step in the process, something I can learn more about. Maybe cerakoat, durakoat or some other option. It's certainly easier to buy one, but building one has the added benefit of learning new skills, and that's a bonus worth more than what you spent for the extra components, since it will stay with you the rest of your life.

agree. and for the same reason its why I've considered buying one of these kits. I don't even actually have any use for a defensive rifle but a couple hundred bucks is not that big of an investment, especially if I get the kit with two 80% lowers and I've "grandfathered" myself in no registration. I've come close a couple of times but I have more use with pistols. I need to realise the days of knowing you could exercise your constitutional freedom at any time are over.
and yes, duracoat would work just fine.

 

[etrain16]

agree. and for the same reason its why I've considered buying one of these kits. I don't even actually have any use for a defensive rifle but a couple hundred bucks is not that big of an investment, especially if I get the kit with two 80% lowers and I've "grandfathered" myself in no registration. I've come close a couple of times but I have more use with pistols. I need to realise the days of knowing you could exercise your constitutional freedom at any time are over.
and yes, duracoat would work just fine.

Yeah, I've not yet pulled the trigger on a kit...yet. Always seems to be something else more pressing. I've been focusing a bit on reloading supplies in 2015. I'm hoping to try and finish an 80% kit in 2016.

 

[Slobray]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...cOBw4McWR3hrj9VwA&sig2=ETmoIg40ERlTiAJZT6haCQ

As many here may remember that this whole deal started with Ares Arms in Oceanside, CA by selling people 80% AR lowers and letting them push the button on their CNC machine to circumvent having a manufacturers license.

As for the ATF Letter posted in the link above, nowhere does it state that people may not loan each other tools to create a firearm. It says that a business (including an association or society) or any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process may not let people use their equipment.

Use of Manufacturing Machines, Tools, or Equipment
An FFL or unlicensed machine shop may also desire to make available its machinery (e.g., a computer numeric control or "CNC" machine), tools, or equipment to individuals who bring in raw materials, blanks, unfinished frames or receivers and/or other firearm parts for the purpose of creating operable firearms. Under the instruction or supervision of the FFL or unlicensed machine shop, the customers would initiate and/or manipulate the machinery, tools, or equipment to complete the frame or receiver, or entire weapon. The FFL or unlicensed machine shop would typically charge a fee for such activity, or receive some other form of compensation or benefit. This activity may occur either at a fixed premises, such as a machine shop, or a temporary location, such as a gun show or event.


A business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements under the GCA simply by allowing individuals to initiate or manipulate a CNC machine, or to use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion or control to perform manufacturing processes on blanks, unfinished frames or receivers, or incomplete weapons. In these cases, the business controls access to, and use of, its machinery, tools, and equipment. Following manufacture, the business "distributes" a firearm when it returns or otherwise disposes a finished frame or receiver, or complete weapon to its customer. Such individuals or entities are, therefore, "engaged in the business" of manufacturing firearms even though unlicensed individuals may have assisted them in the manufacturing process.
Held,
any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a "weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive," i.e., a "firearm," must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer's records.

Held further,
a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment.

I think this means that @IronMonster probably would go to jail for letting us use his shop and/or equipment, but if a group of people met in someones garage that wasn't "in the business" and had a build party and loaned each other tools, they would be OK.

As I'm not a lawyer or scholar please correct me if I missed something in this letter that proves that I'm wrong.


Ray

PS, if there is going to be a build party (especially for newbies) please wait or schedule another one in/or after mid June, so I can attend.