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Having followed a number of insane cases where BATF have deliberately entrapped otherwise innocent dealers, both FFL's and private, legal sellers, it would not surprise me if these attempts to buy outside the law are further attempts at entrapement. Best policy is to stand your ground, and insist the law be followed. ALL interstate sales MUST go through FFL dealers... its nuts, but its the law, and, even though unconstitutional on several levels, the thugogracy currently in power can make life pretty miserable for stepping the wrong side of their rules. Until these unlawful laws are changed, best observe them. Part of the MO of the tyrants at BATF is to come across as either innocents, trying to entrap other innocents, telling lies to gain your trust (hey,. its OK, noo one will get caught, its not really the law anyway....), or playing the tough guy, trying to convince you he's on your side and against "the man". Don't fall for any of it. Ten years in a federal prison is too high a "profit" to take on any sale.

now, face to face in your own state, check for proof of residence, ask whether they are lawfully able to own THAT weapon, take down a license plate number, something like that.... no need to require CPL/CWP, as non-holders can buy handguns private without them. If in doubt, require proof of age.... some seventeen year old kids can pass for twenty two... but YOU will head for the slammer if caught... and yes, FBI and BATF, not to mention local LE, ARE out there entrapping people... as if there is no real criminal activity they SHOULD be looking into rather than making criminals out of otherwise law abiding citizens.

The ONLY way to keep yer nose clean is to keep it clean.. KNOW the firearms laws, and abide by them. I really appreciate the WAC, one MUST be a Washington resident AND pass a background check to join, and at our shows, ONLY members can even handle firearms, let alone buy or sell. Pretty safe there..... there have been long standing members booted out of the association for selling to non-members. Hard, but right.
 
I know it is legal for a WA resident to buy long guns from Oregon based FFL's. I also am quite certain it is legal for a resident of ANY state to buy long guns from FFL's in another state.. IF that weapon is legal for them to own in their own state..... and IF their state of residence does not require ALL firearm purchases to be through FFL's in their own state. Some states (CA, NJ, IL, NY, at least) require special permits and/or instate FFL's for ALL transfers, even private parties. Sales to residents of such states are illegal unless shipped to that state for completion.

By the bye, anyone requiring WA CPL for FtF sales of handguns is requiring something NOT required by law. In WA, ALL Ftf transfers are legal as long as the buyer is a WA resident (ask for proof), AND not iin a prohibited class. While the CPL does come close to proving the guy isn't prohibited, the law does not require this proof. The law is fulfilled if you merely ask, and the prospective buyer claims to be lawfully able to own that firearm. In reality, a receipt from a recent firearms purchase from an FFL is just as certain a proof as is a CPL. Both demonstrate a recent background check.... thus the person is not prohibited. Requiring a CPL is excessive... requiring a DL is almost excessive... not required by law, which only says you, as seller, can not KNOWINGLY sell to a non-resident or prohibited person. The test for "knowingly" is absense of reasonable grounds to believe he is prohibited, or non-resident.

In spite of all that, there is a recdent case in Texas, Austin, I believe, where a private seller at a gunshow, not required to be FFL, sold a handgun to a man who presented a Texas driver's license, claimed to be a permanent resident of Texas (which the DL confirms, you cannot get one unless you are), and lawfully entitled to own that gun. He was dressed sort of like a cattleman, had a heavy spanish accent, was with two others who apparently did not speak english. Seeing no cause to suspect the buyer was prohibited, he completed the sale. The buyer then carried the gun into the parking lot, sold it to one of his companions, who got into a vehicle and left. In a few minutes, BATF arrested the seller for "unlawful sale to a prohibited person", seized ALL his inventory on the table, sent to his house and seized another forty or so more.... he was tried on the charges, the basis was he "should have known, since the buyer had a spanish accent, he was an illegal alien, thus prohibited". Never mind the guy produced a Texas DL with a local address... which you cannot get unless you are citizen or permanent resident. BATF had set up the sting, it is, in reality, entrapment.... BATF provided the DL, paid the guy to make the purchase, never charged him for illegal purchase, OR for the subsequent illegal parking lot transfer.. in reality, the illegal should have been arrested and deported, but no, they kept him around to make more stings... never charged him with straw buying, illegal subsequent sales, or anything. The seller, a retired Vietnam vet, was crucified for going about his business......

so, yes, FBI and BATF are definitely out making stings. It is THEY, and their cohorts, ought to be in jail.

And yes, Bloomie and his stooges ought to get busted for making their illegal purchases out of state, too... I can hardly wait until someone has the balls to do so. It would look good on him. Bloomie arrested for interstate arms purchases as a straw buyer....... last time he pulled his garbage in Arizona, Governer Brewer let him know... DON"T COME BACK or we'll prosecute for firearms violations. SHE's got more spine than most male governors, Good on her.
 
By the bye, anyone requiring WA CPL for FtF sales of handguns is requiring something NOT required by law. In WA, ALL Ftf transfers are legal as long as the buyer is a WA resident (ask for proof), AND not iin a prohibited class. While the CPL does come close to proving the guy isn't prohibited, the law does not require this proof. The law is fulfilled if you merely ask, and the prospective buyer claims to be lawfully able to own that firearm. In reality, a receipt from a recent firearms purchase from an FFL is just as certain a proof as is a CPL. Both demonstrate a recent background check.... thus the person is not prohibited. Requiring a CPL is excessive... requiring a DL is almost excessive... not required by law, which only says you, as seller, can not KNOWINGLY sell to a non-resident or prohibited person. The test for "knowingly" is absense of reasonable grounds to believe he is prohibited, or non-resident.

Doesn't matter if it's the law or not, if a private seller wants to put that stipulation on a sale then they can and I do!! If you don't happen to like the stipulation then buy somewhere else. I'm going to protect myself.

Any dealer can establish their own requirements, they CAN'T be less than what they law says, but they can be more stringent if they want.

8 US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

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The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington member
 
Doesn't matter if it's the law or not, if a private seller wants to put that stipulation on a sale then they can and I do!! If you don't happen to like the stipulation then buy somewhere else. I'm going to protect myself.

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Fair enough.

Just how does a CPL protect you?
 
Doesn't matter if it's the law or not, if a private seller wants to put that stipulation on a sale then they can and I do!! If you don't happen to like the stipulation then buy somewhere else. I'm going to protect myself.

Any dealer can establish their own requirements, they CAN'T be less than what they law says, but they can be more stringent if they want.

well, then, maybe I should demand any prospective buyer dance the jig before I'll hand over my wares....... makes just as much sense..... and helps just about as much.
 
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Fair enough.

Just how does a CPL protect you?

I shouldn't even have to answer this, it's pretty self evident!!

If they have a valid CPL then I have done due diligence in making sure the buyer is permitted to own a firearm. And by asking for a DL to go with it I'm pretty sure the CPL holder is who they say they are.
 
well, then, maybe I should demand any prospective buyer dance the jig before I'll hand over my wares....... makes just as much sense..... and helps just about as much.

Totally wrong!
Dancing a jig doesn't prove the buyer can own a firearm or is even who they say they are. Asking for a valid DL and valid CPL does.

If you guys think differently then you are free to sell to whoever and the BATF is free to set up a sting to catch you selling to a felon! I'll be glad it isn't me.

US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
 
Deen, the rules don't require a CPL, and you know it. ALL that is required is that you do not have any reasonable cause to believe the buyer is prohibited., and is a resident of the same state as you are....... and is of legal age (of course, not being of legal age makes him part of the prohibited class, now, doesn't it?) You are placing a requirement on potential buyers the law does not. Many people, for a variety of reasons, do not care to get the CPL.. by this personal decision, quite likely for perfectly sound and legal reasons, should not preclude them from purchasing a desired weapon lawfully traded. Besides, the CPL on its own is proof of identity AND of Washington residence.. the non-resident version clearly identifies the holder as a non-resident. Yet you also require a DL.......
I find it interesting you are also an NRA recruiter... which organisation is largely about REMOVING unnecessary restrictions upon our guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Yet you place your own personal "infringements" upon those who lack your extralegal documentation and otherwise would be fully legal to trade with. A little double standard, there....... what if I produce a WAC member badge, proving I've a current BG check run by them.... and Washington State residence? Your own organisation does the "due diligence" for us, yet you refuse to accept that? What is wrong with YOUR organisation that you do not trust them? Again, a double standard...... some things to consider. BATF can NOT run a sting operation against people who abide by ALL the laws, unconstitutional though those laws be.
 
Besides, if a guy shows me a WA DL, makes a written statement he is lawfully entitled to buy my gun, and I insist he dance the jig on my front porch, I've done all the law requires, and the "something extra" that turns MY crank, and is worthless.

When I show up with a WA DL, AND a current WAC membership badge, make the written statement that I am lawfully entitled to make the purchase, and YOU demand a CPL, You have done all the law requires and more.... and your "something extra" that turns YOUR crank is just about as silly..... and worthless as my request the buyer dance the jig.

I suppose any prospective buyer could refuse to comply with either of our requests, and go his way without acquiring the property he came to get. In both cases we have each lost a legal sale. And we'd both be about equally silly. And still looking for that "perfect buyer".
 
Totally wrong!
Dancing a jig doesn't prove the buyer can own a firearm or is even who they say they are. Asking for a valid DL and valid CPL does.

If you guys think differently then you are free to sell to whoever and the BATF is free to set up a sting to catch you selling to a felon! I'll be glad it isn't me.

US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member

Having said that do you really want to sell a firearm to a felon? I certainly don't.. and I don't think you want to, either. we should go the extra mile to be sure we are not enabling a dangerous criminal
 
I recently did a transfer at a local shop and in talking with the clerk about CPL's and waiting periods he informed me that even a CPL may not be valid as gave an example of a recent guy who was facing a divorce. The individual was no longer eligible for a CPL (not from the divorce but because of other -behaviors-) but still had the CPL in his posession. Combined with the drivers license he would be able to walk out the door with his new piece. What about the NCIC you say, he wouldn't pass, well the NCIC won't show a restraining order.

So, having a WA drivers license as well as a CPL does not guarantee that the individual is eligible. In either case, having a CPL or dancing a jig, there is NO guarantee that some agency may come after you for what they perceive to be an illegal sale. The issue is if YOU as the seller excercised due dillegence compared to a reasonable standard. And once again, the ultimate determination will still be made by the 12 jurors.
 
PLEASE STOP THIS NON SENSE! As a private seller you can be as prejudice as you want.You can imply as many unnecessary restrictions as you want or need to feel safe. If your really uptight, take it to an FFl and have him do a transfer with NICS. Then your totally off the hook.Your going to narrow the field of potential buyers though. I don't know why people on here don't want to transfer guns through FFL's.If you look around you can still find a lot of FFL's that will do transfers for $20 and don't illegally charge sales tax,(another topic that needs ironed out. TELL THEM IT"S A GIFT!)
I'm proud of all the transfers I do. I like the Government to know how many guns I buy. I'm exercising my rights so they don't become weak. They are not compiling list so they know where to come and take them away! Most guns are not in the original owner's possession anymore. If they do come to get your guns, it's going to have nothing to do with a list of firearms you've transferred legally, that you had destroyed when you became a member of PETA.....No, if they come to take our firearms it will be a Jack Boot kicking in your door taking all your weapons regardless of how you acquired them.
Those most at risk are the guy's that have tables at every gun show but are not FFL's. Thats the guy's I believe BATF wants. But thats just my opinion. The rest of us that just love to shoot,collect,trade,fix up,and hunt with guns are true hobbyist.

I digress. The bottom line is use common sense and go with what your comfort level is. That's what the feedback system is for. Look how long they've had an account. People have stories of some guy in Texas who got in trouble, but it's just that ,a story. Not one member on this forum has said they've been in trouble for selling a firearm. Use an FFL if your looking for a 100% release of liability.
 
I shouldn't even have to answer this, it's pretty self evident!!

If they have a valid CPL then I have done due diligence in making sure the buyer is permitted to own a firearm. And by asking for a DL to go with it I'm pretty sure the CPL holder is who they say they are.

==============================================================

I am not trying to argue with you Dean, merely trying to engage in this discussion.

I fully support you in setting conditions on anything you wish to sell, or buy for that matter.

Anyway, here in OR you can receive a concealed weapons permit and not be eligible to purchase a gun under federal law. A person can obtain a WA CPL without being a WA resident.

Short of using an FFL IMHO the best way to protect yourself is a bill of sale signed by the buyer stating they can legally purchase the item in the state that the transaction is being done.

Of course asking to see ID and listening to voices in your head is entirely prudent.
 
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I am not trying to argue with you Dean, merely trying to engage in this discussion.

I fully support you in setting conditions on anything you wish to sell, or buy for that matter.

Anyway, here in OR you can receive a concealed weapons permit and not be eligible to purchase a gun under federal law. A person can obtain a WA CPL without being a WA resident.

Short of using an FFL IMHO the best way to protect yourself is a bill of sale signed by the buyer stating they can legally purchase the item in the state that the transaction is being done.

Of course asking to see ID and listening to voices in your head is entirely prudent.

Since OR does a background check with NICS before issuing an OR permit how can you not be eligible to have one?

You can also obtain an OR permit without being an OR resident. Which adds nothing to the discussion.

That's why the bill of sale I use says just that.


8 US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Wash
 
Since OR does a background check with NICS before issuing an OR permit how can you not be eligible to have one?

You can also obtain an OR permit without being an OR resident. Which adds nothing to the discussion.

That's why the bill of sale I use says just that.

================================================================

Interesting reply. I am not sure you have thought this completely through. You can have a wash CPL and not be a resident of the state, so, producing a CPL on it's own is not proof of being eligible to purchase a gun from you, I do believe you require a Wa ID also which would make the non resident CPL holder easy to catch.

Oregon is a must issue state and the Oregon courts have ruled that the sheriffs must issue to residents with a medical marijuana card, even though federal law prohibits the sale of fire arms to dug addicts/illegal drug users.

federal law does not trump state law, because the concealed handgun license just gives a person a legal defense if they are arrested, not a right.

Oregon's attorney general has sided with the marijuana cardholders, arguing that the concealed handgun license cannot be used to buy a gun, so sheriffs who issue one to a marijuana card holder are not in violation of the federal law.

<broken link removed>

And of course you can obtain a CPL, then be arrested for drunk driving, domestic violence, go insane, etc. afterwards. Thee scenarios may be unlikely but still should be a concern.

The federal govt does not care if you have a concealed weapons permit when determining whether you are eligible to purchase a fire arm and neither do I. IMHO having a concealed weapons permit is not proof of anything in regards to buying selling fire arms.

Interesting discussion for me, I am not all that experienced with gun laws and appreciate the different views and opinions of others as it helps me in forming political views and a better understanding how not to break the law.
 
Deen, the rules don't require a CPL, and you know it. ALL that is required is that you do not have any reasonable cause to believe the buyer is prohibited., and is a resident of the same state as you are....... and is of legal age (of course, not being of legal age makes him part of the prohibited class, now, doesn't it?) You are placing a requirement on potential buyers the law does not. Many people, for a variety of reasons, do not care to get the CPL.. by this personal decision, quite likely for perfectly sound and legal reasons, should not preclude them from purchasing a desired weapon lawfully traded. Besides, the CPL on its own is proof of identity AND of Washington residence.. the non-resident version clearly identifies the holder as a non-resident. Yet you also require a DL.......
I find it interesting you are also an NRA recruiter... which organisation is largely about REMOVING unnecessary restrictions upon our guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Yet you place your own personal "infringements" upon those who lack your extralegal documentation and otherwise would be fully legal to trade with. A little double standard, there....... what if I produce a WAC member badge, proving I've a current BG check run by them.... and Washington State residence? Your own organisation does the "due diligence" for us, yet you refuse to accept that? What is wrong with YOUR organisation that you do not trust them? Again, a double standard...... some things to consider. BATF can NOT run a sting operation against people who abide by ALL the laws, unconstitutional though those laws be.

He stated that is HIS business practice, not required but for his safety.
I see know problem with him wanting to make a safe and legal sale, whether the rules require it, or not.
His rule do require it.
Don't fault him for trying too hard.
 
Since OR does a background check with NICS before issuing an OR permit how can you not be eligible to have one?

You can also obtain an OR permit without being an OR resident. Which adds nothing to the discussion.

That's why the bill of sale I use says just that.


8 US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Wash

If you have been served with a Domestic Violence, or other crime and have a restraining order against you, dose the state of Oregon immediately grab your CHL?
If you have a restraining order, you cannot legally have a CHL.
<broken link removed>
<broken link removed>
 
Deen, the rules don't require a CPL, and you know it. ALL that is required is that you do not have any reasonable cause to believe the buyer is prohibited., and is a resident of the same state as you are....... and is of legal age (of course, not being of legal age makes him part of the prohibited class, now, doesn't it?) You are placing a requirement on potential buyers the law does not. Many people, for a variety of reasons, do not care to get the CPL.. by this personal decision, quite likely for perfectly sound and legal reasons, should not preclude them from purchasing a desired weapon lawfully traded. Besides, the CPL on its own is proof of identity AND of Washington residence.. the non-resident version clearly identifies the holder as a non-resident. Yet you also require a DL.......
I find it interesting you are also an NRA recruiter... which organisation is largely about REMOVING unnecessary restrictions upon our guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Yet you place your own personal "infringements" upon those who lack your extralegal documentation and otherwise would be fully legal to trade with. A little double standard, there....... what if I produce a WAC member badge, proving I've a current BG check run by them.... and Washington State residence? Your own organisation does the "due diligence" for us, yet you refuse to accept that? What is wrong with YOUR organisation that you do not trust them? Again, a double standard...... some things to consider. BATF can NOT run a sting operation against people who abide by ALL the laws, unconstitutional though those laws be.

Agree with most of what you're posting here but not the red text. BATF can and certainly has fabricated "evidence" to get someone they really wanted to take down. Once they have your gun they can do whatever they like and simply say it was confiscated in that condition. It's kind of like what Stalin said: "I don't care how the people vote, all that matters is who counts the votes"..
 

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