Is anyone else having buyers who are trying to go around the transfer laws?

[Blitzkrieg]

At every gun show I do I wind up talking with several people (or more) who are not legal residents but want to buy guns. Since I am an FFL, there is no possibility of my transferring a gun to an out of state buyer, but I have been wondering lately about the legality of my slapping a pair of cuffs on the next guy who attempts to commit a felony by asking?

Some states do allow for citizen's arrest. If it's obvious they are a bad actor and not just ignorant, why not contact the hired off duty cop at the show, if you have one? Here they are hired for the door check and security

 

[The B]

Some states do allow for citizen's arrest. If it's obvious they are a bad actor and not just ignorant, why not contact the hired off duty cop at the show, if you have one? Here they are hired for the door check and security

i've only ever really been to the big show at the expo here in oregon, but there's no shortage of ON-duty cops all over the place, there.

 

[billdeserthills]

i've only ever really been to the big show at the expo here in oregon, but there's no shortage of ON-duty cops all over the place, there.

I will check, but I can't see why a state cop is gonna enforce a federal law

 

[billdeserthills]

Some states do allow for citizen's arrest. If it's obvious they are a bad actor and not just ignorant, why not contact the hired off duty cop at the show, if you have one? Here they are hired for the door check and security

I spoke with a guy at the last show & I let him know what he was seeking was a Felony. I then observed him proceed to every single table in my room& ask every person he saw if they were interested in selling a gun to an out of state buyer.

 

[Stomper]

What is this FOID you speak of? I've been told to FOAD but never FOID

LMAO.... NICE!!! Trlsmn, you wise-a**

 

[CXD Arms]

I haven't posted here much but I am an active member of Calguns.Net. I am not an expert by any means but I have lived in Illinois, California and now here.

Most individuals are not familiar with in state as well as out of state laws. I have an 03 FFL and the ATF sends me the state regulations as if I was an 01 FFL.

Lets look at California.

It is PERFECTLY legal to send an AR-15 to a FFL in California IF, it meets certain requirements. The requirements are based on the brand and evil fetures. The legality isn't on you, but rather the receiving FFL. If they are willing to accept it, then the burden is on them. There have been instances of FFL's in California getting a firearm which is not legal, and they just box it up and send it back to the sender.

For it to be legal it must;

1. The rifle (or lower receiver) must be an Off List Lower (OLL) receiver. The means it isn't on the 1989 Robert Roos assault weapon control act. Examples of unlisted lowers would be Stag, Lauer, CMMG, etc. Some listed lowers (which would be illegal regardless of 'evil features') are DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, etc.

2. The complete OLL rifle cannot be a semi automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine AND any othe the other 'evil features'. The most common 'evil feature' is the pistol grip which for the AR-15 series is a required item due to the selecter detent pin and spring which the pistol grip retains. Some other 'evil features' are flash hiders or folding or collapsible stocks. If the magazie is fixed and requires a tool or disassembly of the upper and lower then you can have ANY and ALL of the evil features because the evil features are based on a detachable magazine.

So, if a prospective California buyer has a WILLING FFL that will accept the lower receiver by itself (either stripped or as a complete lower), it IS PERFECTLY LEGAL to ship the upper receiver to the individual just as Model 1 Sales or Rock River Arms would ship an upper receiver to you.

Another reason WHY it is LEGAL is that the complete lower, which is the firearm is just that, a firearm. If the individual attaches a 22LR rimfire upper to the lower receiver, the assault weapon laws to not apply. The law is written for CENTERFIRE rifles, so an individual could have an OLL with every evil feature so long as it has a RIMFIRE upper attached.

While most individuals are aware of the ATF constructive posession laws with regards to SBR's and machine gun parts (especially here in WA state), California does not have constructive posession laws with regards to assault weapons. This means it is perfectly legal to have an AR-15 upper with a flash hider sitting next to a complete Off List Lower (OLL). This assumes it is ATF compliant, 16" barrel, etc.

Additionally, this applies to HK-91-93-MP5 types of weapons as well. Again, the original HK brand firearms were listed on the initial ban but the aftermarket clones- Bobcat, Special Weapons, etc. are not. If you or your sending FFL are willing to ship a PTR-91 disassembled then the receiving FFL can accept it. Some CA FFL's play ball, some do not. Basically all you need to do is remove the stock and the pistol grip/fire control assembly. They can be next to each other, in the case or box but just not attached. Again, this is because of the lack of constructive posesison laws with regards to assault weapons and CA state law. ATF laws still apply so you couldn't send a 10" upper with a complete OLL receiver, but that is because of the ATF, not CA state law.

I hope this provides some unbiased clarification as I do not have a dog in the fight, but I did while I was stationed in California. Basically if the receiving FFL is ok, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I spoke with a guy at the last show & I let him know what he was seeking was a Felony. I then observed him proceed to every single table in my room& ask every person he saw if they were interested in selling a gun to an out of state buyer.

I suppose this qualifies.. sounds like a sting to me

BTW many depts allow off duty cops to work security jobs while wearing their uniforms

 

[badclam]

It's really simple here folks. It doesn't matter if it is BATF,some crack head,or just a dumb *** that doesn't know what he is doing. IF IT'S GOING TO ANOTHER STATE AND IT'S NEWER THAN 1898, IT HAS TO SHIP TO AN FFL. PERIOD! ANY OTHER TRANSACTION IS A FELONY! If they can't provide a valid FFL to ship to,or they ask you to split a gun up,tell them you are turning them over to the BATF. It works every time. They will stop contact with you immediately if they're not legit.

 

[deen_ad]

This is one reason I like WAC shows. If they have a valid badge I can sell to them, no badge, no sale!! On edit: their drivers license or CPL has to match the badge too.

8 former US Presidents have been NRA Members
80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!

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The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
South West Washington Arms Collector member

 

[Hawaiian]

Good chance it is a sting coming from Illinois. I collect auto knives. They are illegal in Illinois. A few years ago, the Illinois AG did a sting ordering auto knives to be shipped to Illinois. He targeted on line dealers and then went after them. It cost some big bucks in legal fees to fight the charges. It is illegal to ship an auto knife across state lines. Many do it, but it is illegal. If you visit any on line dealers that sell auto knives, you will note that they now declare, no sales to Illinois.
Illinois is an anti gun state. I would not be surprised that they are going after out of state FFL's.

 

[billdeserthills]

It's really simple here folks. It doesn't matter if it is BATF,some crack head,or just a dumb *** that doesn't know what he is doing. IF IT'S GOING TO ANOTHER STATE AND IT'S NEWER THAN 1898, IT HAS TO SHIP TO AN FFL. PERIOD! ANY OTHER TRANSACTION IS A FELONY! If they can't provide a valid FFL to ship to,or they ask you to split a gun up,tell them you are turning them over to the BATF. It works every time. They will stop contact with you immediately if they're not legit.

Big +1 to this, not worth jailtime.

 

[deen_ad]

Good chance it is a sting coming from Illinois. I collect auto knives. They are illegal in Illinois. A few years ago, the Illinois AG did a sting ordering auto knives to be shipped to Illinois. He targeted on line dealers and then went after them. It cost some big bucks in legal fees to fight the charges. It is illegal to ship an auto knife across state lines. Many do it, but it is illegal. If you visit any on line dealers that sell auto knives, you will note that they now declare, no sales to Illinois.
Illinois is an anti gun state. I would not be surprised that they are going after out of state FFL's.

BenchMade will NOT return an auto knife to you when sent in for sharpening UNLESS it was shipped direct from a dealer or you sign a declaration that you're a LEO or otherwise exempt.

8 US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington member

 

[billdeserthills]

BenchMade will NOT return an auto knife to you when sent in for sharpening UNLESS it was shipped direct from a dealer or you sign a declaration that you're a LEO or otherwise exempt.

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Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter

Best reason I ever heard to Not buy Benchmade

 

[blindfox]

BenchMade will NOT return an auto knife to you when sent in for sharpening UNLESS it was shipped direct from a dealer or you sign a declaration that you're a LEO or otherwise exempt.

miltary is considered exempt for purposes of their warranty and sharpening, isn't it?

 

[baada]

miltary is considered exempt for purposes of their warranty and sharpening, isn't it?

I sent in an auto-knife with a handwritten note about how it helped me out on a deployment, and they sent it back to me no problem. Yes, military is exempt. There is a form you can download from them and send in a copy of your ID, but apparently a note works just as well

 

[Redcap]

BenchMade will NOT return an auto knife to you when sent in for sharpening UNLESS it was shipped direct from a dealer or you sign a declaration that you're a LEO or otherwise exempt.

8 US Presidents have been NRA members. They are: Ulysses S. Grant,
Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Dwight D. Eisenhower,
John F. Kennedy, Richard M. Nixon, Ronald Reagan and George Bush.

80 MILLION gun owners didn't shoot anyone today, a few criminals did!!

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Feedback Score" is low by 4, not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington member

Why would you ever send a knife off to have it sharpened? That is a skill that every man should possess.

 

[nubus]

Some guy on here, with a low post count, keeps offering a pistol as trade for a long gun across state lines. Seriously, why would two sellers want to both do an FFL transfer in both directions? He offered me a trade and I didn't realize he was out of state before I said "no thanks" or I probably would have given him a bit more of the business. I have the same problem at gun shows where people don't have proper ID. The one I really like is when they start asking questions about pistol uppers on rifle lowers or how easy is it to make this or that full auto. Seriously? It's like I'm a fireworks stand and if they ask right I'll whip out the cool stuff that's not on the table. I just shut that sh!t down straight away and state the 10 years in jail option. I wonder how many of them are "employed" versus just plain stupid.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Some guy on here, with a low post count, keeps offering a pistol as trade for a long gun across state lines. Seriously, why would two sellers want to both do an FFL transfer in both directions? He offered me a trade and I didn't realize he was out of state before I said "no thanks" or I probably would have given him a bit more of the business. I have the same problem at gun shows where people don't have proper ID. The one I really like is when they start asking questions about pistol uppers on rifle lowers or how easy is it to make this or that full auto. Seriously? It's like I'm a fireworks stand and if they ask right I'll whip out the cool stuff that's not on the table. I just shut that sh!t down straight away and state the 10 years in jail option. I wonder how many of them are "employed" versus just plain stupid.

It's insane but even discussing conversions to full auto can get you charged with "conspiracy". I too will not even discuss it with buddies, in private, even for entertainment purposes

 

[baada]

Keep in mind, folks, some people truly aren't aware that it's a felony. For instance, I've been working with guns on the job for over 15 years now, and knew shipping them required an FFL, but I had no idea that cross-state purchases required an FFL transfer. I've only started buying my own guns in the last few months. I, like many others, believed I could just drive down to OR and buy a gun and bring it home. Sometimes it's not conspiracy or duplicity, but just simple ignorance. I have to thank this forum for setting me straight. Glad I didn't try to buy from one of the vendors posting on here about how they'd give someone the third degree or even illegally detain someone for just being dumb.

 

[Hawaiian]

BenchMade will NOT return an auto knife to you when sent in for sharpening UNLESS it was shipped direct from a dealer or you sign a declaration that you're a LEO or otherwise exempt.

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Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
Washington Arms Collector member
Arms Collectors of South West Washington member

Unless you live in Oregon as they are not shipping across state lines. You, from Vancouver, could drive down and drop it off and pick it up when they are done. Heck, if it is just to be sharpened, they might do it while you wait.