Interesting video on pistol caliber selection

[wichaka]

I have a CZ75 SP-01 in 9mm I would take to war as my most trusted and accurate pistol because in most things placement is king.

Folks we have a winner!!!

We get into schoolyard quarrels about the best gun to carry, if there is ever such a thing. Or the best ammo to carry, which is debatable...ok somewhat.

But how many will look at one gun, no matter the make or caliber and trust their life with it? If you happen to have such a gun, that's the one to carry. Having confidence in your gun, with caliber and foremost reliability, will help you train better and smarter as you'll have less things to worry about. And in turn, you'll see your hits/accuracy improve.

I've trained people with $4,000 custom made 1911's to few hundred dollar Hi-Points and most everything in between. If your gun meets the above, then brush off what others say about it and pack it with pride.

 

[PuddleMonkey]

you're too old to be up this late

 

[BAMCIS]

Puddle was right. It was to late and I was to old to respond last night. Now I'm still hiding out from the in-laws.

Thanks for your kind remarks.

I too started training back in the day when "Double Taps" were the norm. Having been thru a street confrontation back early in my career, in the 80's, I then questioned the two shot minimum standard response. But as things go, the newbie is pitched aside. I wasn't being obnoxious, was just questioning the why and where it came from, yet none could really give an informative answer.

Yes, I think we started around the same time. I carried a Colt Python, and I bet you had something similar. It was explained to me the reason for the "double-tap" was it was a good "balance" between potentially stopping an assailant and having rounds left, ready to go if the assailant was not stopped (with the first double-tap). What is carried today obviously have substantially more. Come to think of it I haven't seen a revolver on a cop's hip, especially one from a larger department in a long time. So, like you I feel that should probably not be trained now. However, this needs to be balanced so as not to risk instilling or training the "spray and pray" method or mentality.

Even when my department transitioned to Glocks they were still teaching the double-tap.

If you can't justify the training, why are we teaching it? Because its always been that way and we don't want to upset the balance of things. UGH!

Like you I studied use of force incidents and tactics. And even court cases. But informally. I ended up questioning some of our training and policies. I got my tittie in the wringer when as a young LEO I pointed out some things to my bosses. For example, policy dictated we had to qualify each quarter. That's all well and good, but only one of those times were at night. What I got into trouble for was pointing out the vast majority of gunfights happen at night. Shouldn't we have more emphasis on that?

It came down to money. The bosses simply didn't want to pay the overtime for the guys on dayshift. Instead they paid the guy (usually just me) who worked nights to come in on overtime, train and/or qualify. Probably closer to the real truth was I'm convinced to this day my bosses were afraid of the dark. I almost never saw them when I worked, which was unless I had to go to court was nearly always at night. Graveyard shift.

Side note: Quite a few cops can't shoot very well. Yes, they qualify, but that certainly doesn't mean they can shoot. Sometimes I'd give a hard time to a buddy or two saying their target looked more like a shotgun pattern than a qualification target. (A different story for another time)

So I've made a life of investigating training, but based on actual events...not someones spur of the moment revelation that X 'should' work.

Thru sitting in on AA debriefs, watching exclusive video be it dash-cam or surveillance, and interviewing various people over the years, I've made another three point list but based on the above gathered info.;

1 - 80% of training can be done without firing a round;

2 - There's no prize for the person who re-holsters their gun first after a confrontation, so don't act like it;

3 - Always reload before holstering. It has amazed me to no end how many people will holster an empty, or partially empty gun after a confrontation;

4 - See number one above, then proceed down the list again.

Spot on. Except #1. I think the percentage is higher. Especially with a motivated student and instructor(s). But lets face it, after the first time or two through a training scenario it kinda sucks. It's old, boring. But it is what it is.

We get into schoolyard quarrels about the best gun to carry, if there is ever such a thing. Or the best ammo to carry, which is debatable...ok somewhat.

I usually won't enter into debates like this for the reasons you listed below.

..................Having confidence in your gun, with caliber and foremost reliability, will help you train better and smarter as you'll have less things to worry about. And in turn, you'll see your hits/accuracy improve.

As pointed out there are far more important things to worry about.

If your gun meets the above, then brush off what others say about it and pack it with pride.

How many threads have we seen on this very forum turn into "Glocks suck, 1911's are better" or "Kimbers suck period"? (Well, I'm kinda guilty of that one myself. (Long story)) It makes for good banter back and forth. However, when it comes to the nut cutting it doesn't matter what one owns, shoots, or carries as long as THEY are satisfied and probably more importantly, proficient with it.

 

[40calruler]

I hear all of this stuff over and over and still believe it is about placement but you need enough penetration for placement to mean anything. I carry a .380 often as current defense ammo has shown to equal 38 special...no plus p but good old fashion 38s. It is not my favorite choice as every day I would carry my 40 or .357 of possible. Only because I enjoy their action and shooting them and know the intimidation factor is much larger on both.
Still if I am a fitted suit with shirt tucked in there is nowhere to place anything but a .380 in my pocket....not fortunate enough to have a gut to cover up something IWB or shoulder rig. I keep in shape as the gun is not my only line of defense and sipping on beer talking about what a bad a%^ you are while you cannot get up a flight of stairs without huffing and puffing always makes me laugh. My knife is deadly and always there. A good punch tot he jaw will take the average tweaker at 100lbs to the ground in a hurry. The gun is last line of defense. In my job I have had the ability to pull legally but chose to physically put the guy on the ground...its a lot cleaner than shooting someone I promise.
All that means nothing though if you carry its back to the same old go with what is comfortable and accurate for you. Guys who say 45s are 6 rounds or 7 at best have not been awake for the past decade. Its still not my favorite but my cousin carries a FNX tactical a times with 16 rounds when he has one in the pipe. He is good with it. I am better with my 40, .380s, and .357s so that is my choice. shoot what you can hit the target with not what some moron tells you is the only way to stop a tweaker....as shown in the forum a guy on pcp is only gunna stop with a headshot from any given caliber so pick your poison and avoid pulling it at all costs unless you truly have to.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

There are only a few 380 loads that can penetrate deep enough to satisfy the FBI requirements. The few times I tuck a 380 in my boot as a BUG it's mag is loaded with ball and one hollowpoint in the chamber

 

[40calruler]

There are only a few 380 loads that can penetrate deep enough to satisfy the FBI requirements. The few times I tuck a 380 in my boot as a BUG it's mag is loaded with ball and one hollowpoint in the chamber

Yeah that is how I carry it sometimes unless it is my 84 or CZ 83 and I have 13 rounds. Those two are heavy enough that with a .380 round I can rapid fire and barely move from my target.

 

[40calruler]

Folks we have a winner!!!

We get into schoolyard quarrels about the best gun to carry, if there is ever such a thing. Or the best ammo to carry, which is debatable...ok somewhat.

But how many will look at one gun, no matter the make or caliber and trust their life with it? If you happen to have such a gun, that's the one to carry. Having confidence in your gun, with caliber and foremost reliability, will help you train better and smarter as you'll have less things to worry about. And in turn, you'll see your hits/accuracy improve.

I've trained people with $4,000 custom made 1911's to few hundred dollar Hi-Points and most everything in between. If your gun meets the above, then brush off what others say about it and pack it with pride.

Well said

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yeah that is how I carry it sometimes unless it is my 84 or CZ 83 and I have 13 rounds. Those two are heavy enough that with a .380 round I can rapid fire and barely move from my target.

I've always wanted one of those, or the Browning double stack, just because. Might make a good loaner gun for a non shootist lady or elderly person, etc

 

[LogicBomb]

a hole is a hole no matter what caliber....shot placement is king...and yes I carry a 9mm (H&K P-30)

 

[40calruler]

I've always wanted one of those, or the Browning double stack, just because. Might make a good loaner gun for a non shootist lady or elderly person, etc

They are great guns. The Browning BDA is my biggest regret as after selling it I realized I really liked it better than the others. I can teach someone to shoot with those as there is so little kick in the heavy metal frame and they are big enough to be accurate to a reasonable distance. I carry one often as I like the capacity and the size way better than my Sigs that hold 7 and although accurate not nearly as accurate. The CZ 83 can be had in good shooting condition for 200 on gunbroker.com I got one and just did a cheap Cerakote job and it looks new unless completely inspected. It shoots perfect and has never had a failure through 6-700 rounds. The Browning if you can find one is so worth the money though. They look and shoot awesome.

 

[wichaka]

I started with a S&W Model 10...dang that dates me!

I have one friend who still carries a revolver on duty, a custom worked over S&W 625. I've had many folk tell me that revolvers are outdated, but he can reload about as fast as someone with an auto, and is more accurate than most folks I shoot with.

Luckily I've had admin's that saw the training/liability things my way...for the most part. Been able to allow 100 rounds a month for training to each Officer, as well as open range days for various training problems etc. Guess I should buy a lottery ticket as well eh? lol

If instructors are resourceful, one can really get quite a bit of training without a lot of cost. Just have to be motivated...now there's a concept!

80% without firing a shot...I was being conservative. I also figured I would get flamed for saying such a thing.

 

[40calruler]

I started with a S&W Model 10...dang that dates me!

I have one friend who still carries a revolver on duty, a custom worked over S&W 625. I've had many folk tell me that revolvers are outdated, but he can reload about as fast as someone with an auto, and is more accurate than most folks I shoot with.

Luckily I've had admin's that saw the training/liability things my way...for the most part. Been able to allow 100 rounds a month for training to each Officer, as well as open range days for various training problems etc. Guess I should buy a lottery ticket as well eh? lol

If instructors are resourceful, one can really get quite a bit of training without a lot of cost. Just have to be motivated...now there's a concept!

80% without firing a shot...I was being conservative. I also figured I would get flamed for saying such a thing.

I was unaware anyone could use a revolver for duty still. Does he carry a BUG? I am all for it as I know guys that are faster and better with their revolver than most with a semi..Ok one guy and thats my uncle and his Colt .357 that he has had since I was a kid. I remember the first time I shot that I was a skinny little kid and the recoil scared the crap out of me. Took me a while to try again as in years after that and I was so freaked out to pull that trigger again. I was shocked when it was no longer scary and did not feel like it was going to punch me in the nose. Ever since I have loved revolvers but for some reason I am anti 38s as a .357 allows you to shoot that round or plus p I cannot see spending the money on something that does not allow for all three when most guns come in .357 for the same price.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

A gun is as good as you are, using it to it's limit. I have watched my femmy wife shoot 18 rds of full house .357 mag into a 2 inch group at 10 yards in less than 18 seconds. That's 2 speedloads and an internally stock M65 S & W

 

[40calruler]

A gun is as good as you are, using it to it's limit. I have watched my femmy wife shoot 18 rds of full house .357 mag into a 2 inch group at 10 yards in less than 18 seconds. That's 2 speedloads and an internally stock M65 S & W

Yeah that is as fast as any even decent trained guy or gal can shoot and reload a semi auto. That guy is awesome I just wish they showed the target. Looked like he kept it down and was back on target every shot even that fast.

 

[40calruler]

BTW your wife is a bad ***. I have never clocked myself but I know that is better than I could do. My wife loves the GP100 for a bedside when camping and the SP101 as a carry when in the woods. She is not that fast but she is accurate. For some reason she is all about the feel of the Rugers. I do not care so long as she is carrying a gun with that power if I am in my waders and cannot get back to shore in a huge hurry she would need to defend herself for a few seconds while I made my way back through the current.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

BTW your wife is a bad ***. I have never clocked myself but I know that is better than I could do. My wife loves the GP100 for a bedside when camping and the SP101 as a carry when in the woods. She is not that fast but she is accurate. For some reason she is all about the feel of the Rugers. I do not care so long as she is carrying a gun with that power if I am in my waders and cannot get back to shore in a huge hurry she would need to defend herself for a few seconds while I made my way back through the current.

She is better than I am with that gun. It was fun watching the macho gun guys at the range as she went thru the paces. As has been said in this thread, find the gun/caliber that works best for you. For me it's the CZ/BHP types, and I'm planning to get set up with an EAA Witness 10MM Elite Match, soon for my primary carry. The hard part is finding an array of carry holsters, especially a vertical shoulder holster like the Galco that I prefer for winter carry and streetbiking. A BHP 9MM has saved my bacon several times and I do not feel undergunned with one in most scenarios

 

[BAMCIS]

80% without firing a shot...I was being conservative. I also figured I would get flamed for saying such a thing.

Won't vet flamed from me. I understand. I must have dry fired a hundred thousand rounds at my TV since the start of football season.

 

[orygun]

Won't vet flamed from me. I understand. I must have dry fired a hundred thousand rounds at my TV since the start of football season.

Man! I wish I had the free time to do what you're doin!

 

[40calruler]

H

A gun is as good as you are, using it to it's limit. I have watched my femmy wife shoot 18 rds of full house .357 mag into a 2 inch group at 10 yards in less than 18 seconds. That's 2 speedloads and an internally stock M65 S & W

Too true. Speaking of which I can make a couple of you excellent shots by
Trading me a good compact for one of my listed pistols. They will make you
Shoot like a pro...or something

 

[wichaka]

Not just trigger time, but reloads, malfunction drills, and after action scanning etc.