Interesting read on stoping power..

[gehrheart]

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

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[Blitzkrieg]

I tend to agree with his general conclusions. Handguns are for when you can't carry a long gun and a way to fight your way back to your long gun

One glaring problem with his data that popped right out at me was the shotgun part.. he did not specify what types of loads were in his samples. I imagine a lot of those shoots were with birdshot, which is generally a very poor manstopper. I've never heard of anyone squarely hit in the torso with full power 12 GA buckshot who was not quickly incapacitated. They either fall down right there, or reel away to fall down a short distance away

 

[Mark W.]

A good 1.5oz #4 shot Goose or Turkey load will do some serious messing with a center mass shot. especially at the under 20ft range if used inside the average home.

 

[Swedish K]

Interesting read. As always shot placement means more than the bullet used.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

A good 1.5oz #4 shot Goose or Turkey load will do some serious messing with a center mass shot. especially at the under 20ft range if used inside the average home.

Maybe, maybe not if they are wearing heavy clothing. I trust only buckshot and slugs

 

[Steve06]

It has always been about shot placement. That's why you want to practice with small targets.

 

[Mark W.]

Maybe, maybe not if they are wearing heavy clothing. I trust only buckshot and slugs

1.5 onces of #4 shot in the chest from 10-20 ft will be spread out about 3 to 6" at the most. I have no doubt unless they are wearing 4-5 Navy Pea coats they are going to be a MESSit will go right through 1.5" of plywood easy enough.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

1.5 onces of #4 shot in the chest from 10-20 ft will be spread out about 3 to 6" at the most. I have no doubt unless they are wearing 4-5 Navy Pea coats they are going to be a MESSit will go right through 1.5" of plywood easy enough.

Many instances of a heavy leather jacket stopping small shot enough to stop it or keep it from deep penetration. There's a reason it's called birdshot

 

[Blitzkrieg]

1.5 onces of #4 shot in the chest from 10-20 ft will be spread out about 3 to 6" at the most. I have no doubt unless they are wearing 4-5 Navy Pea coats they are going to be a MESSit will go right through 1.5" of plywood easy enough.

Many instances of a heavy leather jacket detering small shot enough to stop it or keep it from deep penetration. There's a reason it's called birdshot

This is a test at box o truth.. here is his comments on birdshot for self defense

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

 

[Mark W.]

ancedotal information would actually be useful if there was any details given like range and load

 

[wichaka]

ancedotal information would actually be useful if there was any details given like range and load

Yep...what you said.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

How can you know the exact range or your opponent's possible medicated state or clothing in advance? It's your life and family..

But tell me which police dept issues birdshot ?

 

[Steve06]

by information from the autopsey or the police report, I suppose.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

by information from the autopsey or the police report, I suppose.

By then your body may be laying alongside your attacker. I prefer immediate cessation of hostilities

 

[locobob]

Shot placement is great for snipers... it's not realistic for an impromptu close range gunfight with a moving target.

 

[Chipperxd]

Shot placement is great for snipers... it's not realistic for an impromptu close range gunfight with a moving target.

This. I know shot placement is important but who is a crack shot in the dark after being awakened by the "thump in the night"?

 

[Flopsweat]

This. I know shot placement is important but who is a crack shot in the dark after being awakened by the "thump in the night"?

Certainly not me, but it's still something to practice and strive for. I would expect an arm wound to be less incapacitating than something roughly COM. Missing altogether would probably have even less effect, usually.

Maybe I need a new drill - I could take a nap at the pistol range and have a buddy wake me up by pounding on a board or something. Measure elapsed time to a COM hit on a silhouette target. What could possibly go wrong? Relax, I'm a professional.

 

[chemist]

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

Thank you for posting this. I read it a long time ago and I've tried to present it, but I keep getting shouted down by the "light, fast" crowd. I have no idea why gunners are so fixated on kinetic energy when there are other equally valuable metrics of bullet performance, like momentum, cross-sectional (areal) density, and wound-channel volume.

I'm not taking anything away from kinetic energy, but it's not the be-all-end-all measure of terminal ballistics.
from Fackler:

Serious misunderstanding has been generated by looking upon "kinetic energy transfer" from projectile to tissue as a mechanism of injury. In spite of data to the contrary (1, 63), many assume that the amount of "kinetic energy deposit" in the body by a projectile is a measure of damage (2-5, 36, 37, 40).
Such opinions ignore the direct interaction of projectile and tissue that is the crux of wound ballistics. Wounds that result in a given amount of "kinetic energy deposit" may differ widely. The nondeforming rifle bullet of the AK-74 (Fig 6) causes a large temporary cavity which can cause marked disruption in some tissue (liver), but has far less effect in others (muscle, lung, bowel wall) (9). A similar temporary cavity such as that produced by the M-16 (Fig 2), stretching tissue that has been riddled by bullet fragments, causes a much larger permanent cavity by detaching tissue segments between the fragment paths. Thus projectile fragmentation can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy.
A large slow projectile (Fig 7) will crush (permanent cavity) a large amount of tissue, whereas a small fast missile with the same kinetic energy (Fig 4) will stretch more tissue (temporary cavity) but crush little. If the tissue crushed by a projectile includes the wall of the aorta, far more damaging consequences are likely to result than if this same projectile "deposits" the same amount of energy beside this vessel.
Many body tissues (muscle, skin, bowel wall, lung) are soft and flexible--the physical characteristics of a good shock absorber. Drop a raw egg onto a cement floor from a height of 2 m; then drop a rubber ball of the same mass from the same height. The kinetic energy exchange in both dropped objects was the same at the moment of impact. Compare the difference in effect; the egg breaks while the ball rebounds undamaged. Most living animal soft tissue has a consistency much closer to that of the rubber ball than to that of the brittle egg shell. This simple experiment demonstrates the fallacy in the common assumption that all kinetic energy "deposited" in the body does damage.
The assumption that "kinetic energy deposit" is directly proportional to damage done to tissues also fails to recognize the components of the projectile-tissue collision that use energy but do not cause tissue disruption. They are 1) sonic pressure wave, 2) heating of the tissue, 3) heating of the projectile, 4) deformation of the projectile, and 5) motion imparted to the tissue (gelatin bloc displacement for example).

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

 

[Misterbill]

Shot placement is great for snipers... it's not realistic for an impromptu close range gunfight with a moving target.

Two in the thoracic cavity, easy for anyone who shoots with any frequency, is pretty easy. That's how I judge any defensive load. If it will stop you with two rounds to thoracic almost all the time, I call it good.

For the times they DON'T stop an attacker, this is why we have FAILURE DRILLs. Those are for the rare exception, not the rule. Think about it: If I put two rounds of .380 into your chest, how bad are you gonna want to continue to pursue that attack?

FACT: It's VANISHING rare for a homeowner who employs lethal defense against invaders to be shot. It happens, but it is EXTREMELY rare.

Figure your odds and go from there.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

That's usually because the defender is operating in very well known conditions and surroundings.. home turf. This is one reason why most invasions of countries fail

But lots of people have been hit with more powerful calibers than a little .380 and continued to fight. Home invaders are usually cowards attempting a smash, grab and run, not a shootout