Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Interesting read on stoping power..

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by gehrheart, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. gehrheart

    gehrheart fidalgo island Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Likes Received:
    418
  2. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    I tend to agree with his general conclusions. Handguns are for when you can't carry a long gun and a way to fight your way back to your long gun

    One glaring problem with his data that popped right out at me was the shotgun part.. he did not specify what types of loads were in his samples. I imagine a lot of those shoots were with birdshot, which is generally a very poor manstopper. I've never heard of anyone squarely hit in the torso with full power 12 GA buckshot who was not quickly incapacitated. They either fall down right there, or reel away to fall down a short distance away
     
    Redcap and (deleted member) like this.
  3. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    5,776
    Likes Received:
    4,965
    A good 1.5oz #4 shot Goose or Turkey load will do some serious messing with a center mass shot. especially at the under 20ft range if used inside the average home.
     
  4. Swedish K

    Swedish K SW Washington Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,943
    Likes Received:
    1,231
    Interesting read. As always shot placement means more than the bullet used.
     
  5. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    Maybe, maybe not if they are wearing heavy clothing. I trust only buckshot and slugs
     
  6. Steve06

    Steve06 Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    61
    It has always been about shot placement. That's why you want to practice with small targets.
     
  7. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    5,776
    Likes Received:
    4,965
    1.5 onces of #4 shot in the chest from 10-20 ft will be spread out about 3 to 6" at the most. I have no doubt unless they are wearing 4-5 Navy Pea coats they are going to be a MESSit will go right through 1.5" of plywood easy enough.
     
  8. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    Many instances of a heavy leather jacket stopping small shot enough to stop it or keep it from deep penetration. There's a reason it's called birdshot
     
  9. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    Many instances of a heavy leather jacket detering small shot enough to stop it or keep it from deep penetration. There's a reason it's called birdshot

    This is a test at box o truth.. here is his comments on birdshot for self defense

    The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1

     
    Redcap and (deleted member) like this.
  10. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    5,776
    Likes Received:
    4,965
    ancedotal information would actually be useful if there was any details given like range and load
     
  11. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,374
    Likes Received:
    797

    Yep...what you said.
     
  12. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    How can you know the exact range or your opponent's possible medicated state or clothing in advance? It's your life and family..

    But tell me which police dept issues birdshot ?
     
  13. Steve06

    Steve06 Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    61
    by information from the autopsey or the police report, I suppose.
     
  14. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    By then your body may be laying alongside your attacker. I prefer immediate cessation of hostilities
     
    ATCclears and (deleted member) like this.
  15. locobob

    locobob Beaverton, Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    692
    Likes Received:
    334
    Shot placement is great for snipers... it's not realistic for an impromptu close range gunfight with a moving target.
     
    chemist and (deleted member) like this.
  16. Chipperxd

    Chipperxd Buffalo Active Member

    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    182
    This. I know shot placement is important but who is a crack shot in the dark after being awakened by the "thump in the night"?
     
  17. Flopsweat

    Flopsweat Slightly right of center Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,982
    Likes Received:
    2,223
    Certainly not me, but it's still something to practice and strive for. I would expect an arm wound to be less incapacitating than something roughly COM. Missing altogether would probably have even less effect, usually.

    Maybe I need a new drill - I could take a nap at the pistol range and have a buddy wake me up by pounding on a board or something. Measure elapsed time to a COM hit on a silhouette target. What could possibly go wrong? Relax, I'm a professional. ;)
     
  18. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,620
    Likes Received:
    644
    Thank you for posting this. I read it a long time ago and I've tried to present it, but I keep getting shouted down by the "light, fast" crowd. I have no idea why gunners are so fixated on kinetic energy when there are other equally valuable metrics of bullet performance, like momentum, cross-sectional (areal) density, and wound-channel volume.

    I'm not taking anything away from kinetic energy, but it's not the be-all-end-all measure of terminal ballistics.
    from Fackler:
    http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html
     
  19. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

    Messages:
    1,308
    Likes Received:
    1,013
    Two in the thoracic cavity, easy for anyone who shoots with any frequency, is pretty easy. That's how I judge any defensive load. If it will stop you with two rounds to thoracic almost all the time, I call it good.

    For the times they DON'T stop an attacker, this is why we have FAILURE DRILLs. Those are for the rare exception, not the rule. Think about it: If I put two rounds of .380 into your chest, how bad are you gonna want to continue to pursue that attack?

    FACT: It's VANISHING rare for a homeowner who employs lethal defense against invaders to be shot. It happens, but it is EXTREMELY rare.

    Figure your odds and go from there.
     
  20. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,674
    Likes Received:
    4,849
    That's usually because the defender is operating in very well known conditions and surroundings.. home turf. This is one reason why most invasions of countries fail

    But lots of people have been hit with more powerful calibers than a little .380 and continued to fight. Home invaders are usually cowards attempting a smash, grab and run, not a shootout