Interesting discussion about the Ice Age, and the great flood that happened in the PACNW

[coastal steelheader]

I'm going to check the full Joe Rogan episode out tonight, but this 30 minute discussion is fascinating.
The forces at work that shaped the landscape of WA, OR, and ID is almost impossible to fathom at times.

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[tac]

My Masters dissertation was based on the work by J Harlan Bretz and the multiple events that we call the Glacial Lake Missoula floods that changed the face of the PNW forever.

A VERY interesting time in our history, for sure.

Met some great people while doing it, too.

However, the 'Graham' that our presenter is talking about is the famous/infamous cataclysm event author, Graham Hancock. He has written some VERY thought-provoking stuff over the years, as well as a lot of ridicule-provoking stuff, too.

This latest posit from Mr Beardy and Mr Hancock will get a lot of readers, me included. However, one thing I haven't heard mentioned in this interview is that the Great Glacial Lake Missoula flood wasn't a single event, but one that happened at LEAST FIFTY-FIVE times over a 1200-year period. Any of you can go visit Missoula, and stand there and look up at the hillsides, and see serried ranks of 'terraces' there - each one of which is a lakeshore line.

There is also no mention of the difference in the gradient profile between the Oregon side and the Washington side. Still, with the interviewer and his 'wows' and 'amazings', and 'lookitthats', I'm an early switcher-off here.

I've got an open mind, and I'm happy to discuss known facts - even speculate somewhat - but re-writing on this scale is outside my remit.

tac

 

[coastal steelheader]

Carlson talks about a meteor causing the first one, but I wonder how volcanic activity affected the landscape. Those lahars must have been massive.

 

[mjbskwim]

How much do you have to smoke/ drink to be able to listen to that guy more than a couple minutes?
He's baked in the head,couldn't last more than 5 minutes maybe.

 

[coastal steelheader]

How much do you have to smoke/ drink to be able to listen to that guy more than a couple minutes?
He's baked in the head,couldn't last more than 5 minutes maybe.

Rogen is an acquired taste.

 

[RicInOR]

Just saw this on one of the PNW travel shows - Maybe Grants'

There was a Waterfall 10x bigger than Niagara in WA State - now dry.

Very fascinating.

 

[Stomper]

Bottom line.... a LOT of frakin' water, ice, boulders, and other detritus carved the SNOT outta the place!

 

[Goosebrown]

There is a superb nova episode on glacial lake Missoula. Just riviting and I do not say that about nova that much

NOVA | Mystery of the Megaflood | PBS

 

[tac]

Just saw this on one of the PNW travel shows - Maybe Grants'

There was a Waterfall 10x bigger than Niagara in WA State - now dry.

Very fascinating.

True thing - here 'tis..................


That there landscape is almost FOUR miles side-to-side. x 100

The awful thing is that this part of North America was inhabited by nomadic hunter/gatherers - think Kennewick Man.

tac, aghast at the past and fearish of the future.

 

[tac]

Carlson talks about a meteor causing the first one, but I wonder how volcanic activity affected the landscape. Those lahars must have been massive.

Well, I only have Masters in remote sensing and geomorphology, so let's set the volcanic action aside for a while, and concentrate on the other posit - a 'meteor strike'. I might be wrong here, but in MY book a meteor actually burns out in the atmosphere, making picturesque glowing streaks...

A meteor-ITE, on the other tentacle, is something that actually impacts the planet.

Just like poor Bretz was hung up for years looking for a source of the water, I'm guessing that we'll be looking for an equal length of time for signs of a significant meteorite impact within the same time-frame of ca. 12000 years ago.

The Whitecourt crate in Alberda is only abour 1100 years old, so that doesn't count.

However, if you read this - Missoula Mega Flood (2005) Scablands of Eastern Washington State • r/Documentaries

You'll see that this argument has been ongoing for a long time. Jason Colavito also has a lot to say, mostly debunking Hancock.

Sure the former glacial icefields are going to have traces of meteorites lying over them - they were covering a land area substantially larger than present-day Canada and waaaaaaaaay down into America. The current landscape shows the same overall levels of meteoric detritus - it's happening EVERY freakin' DAY, folks, 24/7/265.

Back to the volcano hypothesisis, and whoopee! We have a winner! Or do we?

Mount Mazama in SW Oregon went wicked back in 5700 BC................

That's, uh, 7700 years back, so, no banana there, boys.

What else was there around 12000 y/a?

Volcanically, very little, but...................... Scientists discover evidence that meteorite storm hit the Earth 13,000 years ago and killed off a prehistoric civilisation | Daily Mail Online

Like I spoge, I have an open mind, but that doesn't mean that my common sense has flown out of the hole.

tac

 

[etrain16]

The Missoula Flood(s) are very interesting when you look at the massive volume of water, rocks, mud, etc. that poured through this area long ago. It's not a subject I know a lot about, but I'm fascinated by it nonetheless. There is a museum in The Dalles that has info on the Missoula Floods as well as a museum down at the U of O that has info on them as well. I had a long talk with a guy at that museum about those floods and how they shaped our area.

@tac, from what I've heard, there is still debate about what caused the flood(s) to happen, more specifically, what caused the massive ice dam, holding back Lake Missoula, to fail. The more common theory, again, from what I'm being told, is that a pinhole sized hole at the base of the huge ice dam formed, and that the pressure from the huge amount of water in that lake was able to turn a pin-sized hole into a massive failure of the ice dam. Does that fit with what you know this?

 

[tac]

Yes, look up 'supercooled water ice'.

But bear in mind that it was not a single event - it happened at least 50 times, as shown by the plentiful benchlines along the former shorelines.



tac

 

[etrain16]

Yes, look up 'supercooled water ice'.

But bear in mind that it was not a single event - it happened at least 50 times, as shown by the plentiful benchlines along the former shorelines.

View attachment 354096

tac

Were each of the events as catastrophic as the next? Unless I'm wrong, I got the distinct impression from the museums that there were maybe a handful of massive events, and a number of smaller events. But again, I've not done any research on this, just what I've learned speaking to folks and visiting those museums.

 

[tac]

Were each of the events as catastrophic as the next? Unless I'm wrong, I got the distinct impression from the museums that there were maybe a handful of massive events, and a number of smaller events. But again, I've not done any research on this, just what I've learned speaking to folks and visiting those museums.

I'm certain you are right. The severity of the event can be assessed by measuring the 'depth' of the water marks - widely-spaced equals large volumes of water and so on.

It's certainly worth a study, as is most everything in the PNW. I remain saddened that it took almost all my life before I got around to some serious study of this, and the time-frame of the populating of the Americas.

tac

 

[Goosebrown]

The meteorite theory is lacking because this same event happened over and over. They wasn't A megaflops so much as many megaflops. I don't think anything but thevtheory of a recurring ice dam makes any sense. A meteorite would be a one time event.

 

[tac]

Quote - During the last deglaciation that followed the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, geologists estimate that a cycle of flooding and reformation of the lake lasted an average of 55 years and that the floods occurred several times over the 2,000-year period between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Jim O'Connor and Spanish Center of Environmental Studies scientist Gerard Benito have found evidence of at least twenty-five massive floods, the largest discharging ≈10 cubic kilometers per hour (2.7 million m³/s, 13 times the Amazon River).

Seems reasonable to me - Occam's Razor applies, IMO.

tac

 

[Goosebrown]

Yes. It is a neat theory that really ticks off all the evidence and is reasonable and repeatable. The reformation of the ice dam is well explained. The release of the dam could have been cyclical warming ( how that could happen without any humans there for climate change... ) or due to geological shifts, possibly even volcanic action elsewhere that affected the temperatures and cracked the ice. Once there is all that water behind an ice dam, the dam becomes pretty susceptible to damage. One release could even have been a meteorite, but the ongoing cycle of dam and release has to be the main cause.

 

[Hop Sing]

A most excellent thread and thanks to all of you for sharing your opinions and expertise.

 

[tac]

Well, Sir, I have opinions formed on the works of better men, and knowledge only by studying what they learned. My sole area of expertise is in knowing when to keep my mouth shut about what I think I know, which may vary considerably from what I ought to know.

Bearing in mind, in science and academia, that you tend to study the work of people who have done more than you, know more than you, and probably forgotten more than you'll ever know, it's a great idea to maintain an even, chin-stroking calm about these matters, bearing in mind that sooner or later something will come up that will blow the present theories totally out of the water.

Until then, the work of Bretz and his successors will be enough for me to be getting on with.

As an aside, a few years ago mrs tac and I were visiting Crown Point, location of vista House. As many here know, it is located on a basalt spur/promontory, some 750 feet above the main highway on the Oregon side. As was my wont, I was listening in to a younger couple discussing the great view, and clutching the local guide book in their paws. It became very obvious to me after a couple of minutes that their grasp of the history of the CRG had missed a few gears, when the male noted to the female that although the flood had passed this way in a 'freakin' big f*kc-off wave' as he noted technically, Vista House had been saved from the disaster by the substantial walls surrounding it.



sigh.......................................

tac

 

[Cameron72]

I live in that flood area. I'm passed off that my top soil was stolen and transported to the Willamette Valley. I want it back. Is there a statute of limitations on grand theft dirt?