Instructor Verification

[DClevenger]

Just kind of a random thought. I'm a new member to the forum but spent the past couple of hours looking at a lot of the different courses that have been linked in the forum. There seem to be a lot of instructors make some very grand claims about their experience and background. Most of which doesn't seem to hold up even after a quick good search.

What courses have people here attended with instructors they have actually researched and verified? There are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. It would be great to weed out the frauds from the legit instructors.

Having been in the Military for 13 years and after years of DoD/DoS contracting, some of the bio's and claims I read in a couple of the instructor bio's for posted courses were comical at best.

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[rick benjamin]

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[DClevenger]

Rick,

I'm not looking for training at this time. I'm just wondering how many of the instructors that have courses posted on here are legitimate instructors who's claims about training and background have been substantiated.

Example: Any idiot with zero experience can pay $200 and take an NRA Instructor class. That doesn't mean the individual actually has the knowledge or experience to be teaching. DPSST is the same. Instructors that claim to have received training from places like REACT (lead instructor has zero actual experience) or OFA (institutionalized instructors) in my experience have very little "teaching" capability. They are simply regurgitating things they have been told over the years, with zero practical application. Places like Threat Dynamics (whom I am very familiar with) that have "military" instructors but don't tell people that the individual was a UAV operator or cook are misleading in their claims.

I'm not here to bash on any of these institutions per se, just wondering how many people have taken the time to vet the instructors of these courses and ensure they are getting legitimate training from instructors with practical experience as opposed to firearms enthusiasts that decided to start teaching people.

 

[Stomper]

Those who embellish their resume (or outright lie) aside, are you only looking for instructors who were former operators, or are you implying only former operators can be legit instructors?

Jerry Miculek could probably teach you everything there is to know about shooting accurate and fast, but I don't believe he ever shot a round in anger, nor has he ever stacked up to clear a building.... and he's considered "The greatest shooter of all time".

 

[Certaindeaf]

Cooper always said that the best shooters taught themselves.
Look ma, no neck beard! lol

 

[IheartSig]

Rick,

I'm not looking for training at this time. I'm just wondering how many of the instructors that have courses posted on here are legitimate instructors who's claims about training and background have been substantiated.

Example: Any idiot with zero experience can pay $200 and take an NRA Instructor class. That doesn't mean the individual actually has the knowledge or experience to be teaching. DPSST is the same. Instructors that claim to have received training from places like REACT (lead instructor has zero actual experience) or OFA (institutionalized instructors) in my experience have very little "teaching" capability. They are simply regurgitating things they have been told over the years, with zero practical application. Places like Threat Dynamics (whom I am very familiar with) that have "military" instructors but don't tell people that the individual was a UAV operator or cook are misleading in their claims.

I'm not here to bash on any of these institutions per se, just wondering how many people have taken the time to vet the instructors of these courses and ensure they are getting legitimate training from instructors with practical experience as opposed to firearms enthusiasts that decided to start teaching people.

Tell us about your course and what you are offering.

As of this post, you have 5 total posts, 2 in thread and 3 other separate posts bashing three separate "courses" or instructors.

Just tell us what you are selling and relax.

 

[DClevenger]

IheartSig,

I'm not trying to push a course. I'm just asking a question.

Stomper,

There is no denying that Jerry Miculek is a hell of a shooter and probably has forgotten more about firearms than most of us will ever know. There is a HUGE difference between being a proficient and accurate shooter on a range, and being a proficient shooter in a life threatening situation.

I asked the question because I saw courses from OFA, REACT, and several others being posted on here. As someone who has been involved in the tactical environment for years, I wouldn't ever waste my money on their classes. I also saw courses through individuals like Gabe Suarez, who is a fairly well known snake oil salesman that doesn't have any business teaching kids to shoot nerf guns, much less teaching anything "tactical".

So, I am wondering, of the classes that I see being pushed here, who has actually taken the time to vet these instructors and confirm that some of their more lofty claims are accurate. That is all.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Most cops etc. are in life threatening situations daily. Most cops can't shoot worth beans.
My quip about Cooper, arguably the greatest firearms instructor of all time, is true.

 

[DClevenger]

MTpockets,

I'm assuming you have never been shot at.

Certaindeaf,

You are 100% correct, and most firearms training in law enforcement is institutionalized training.

I'm finding it peculiar that now one is answering or attempting to answer the question.

Do ya'll not vet instructors when you take their courses? That's a shame.

 

[DClevenger]

MTpockets,

And you're going to sit here and try to say that being a proficient shooter on the range makes you a proficient shooter under high stress? That's comical.

Hell even the US Supreme Court ruled that stationary range training is considered valid training for police officers.

Being the quickest little shooter on the range, firing at paper targets from 10 yards in no way means someone will perform well under stress.

 

[DClevenger]

Again, I just came in here to ask a question. No one seems to be keen on providing any information about instructors that have been verified.

Example: REACT fired one of their instructors just a short while back after it surfaced that he was a Special Forces faker and lied about most all of his background.

 

[Quartermaster]

Anyone who claims to have been through the darkest hell, and offers to sell you the skills you need to walk the same path is a liar. Either about themselves, or their product. Period. Dot. You can't access SO/SF records, and no one here that can will tell you how.

There's your answer. Save your money.

 

[DClevenger]

Oregon Quartermaster,

Actual its very easy to get access to someone's training record. It's a FOIA request. That's what makes it so easy to out Stolen Valor guys these days. You can't access some of their records, but training records are pretty easy to get a copy of. Same with DPSST training records and LE Training records. Hell, Oregon DPSST has a link on their website to request training records. I'm perfectly aware of what military records can and cannot be accessed. Outside of deployments and UCMJ proceedings you can a lot of records through a simple email request.

That doesn't answer my question though, I'm specifically referring to some of the classes that have been advertised in here. Classes in the Northwest. Of the ones being pushed here, has anyone taken the time to verify the background of some of the instructors

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Oregon Quartermaster,

Actual its very easy to get access to someone's training record. It's a FOIA request. That's what makes it so easy to out Stolen Valor guys these days. You can't access some of their records, but training records are pretty easy to get a copy of. Same with DPSST training records and LE Training records. Hell, Oregon DPSST has a link on their website to request training records. I'm perfectly aware of what military records can and cannot be accessed. Outside of deployments and UCMJ proceedings you can a lot of records through a simple email request.

That doesn't answer my question though, I'm specifically referring to some of the classes that have been advertised in here. Classes in the Northwest. Of the ones being pushed here, has anyone taken the time to verify the background of some of the instructors

So you really just came here to crap on whatever instruction anyone is offering because it can't possibly measure up to your elite "operator" standards. Do us all a favor and take a hike.

 

[Stomper]

IheartSig,

I'm not trying to push a course. I'm just asking a question.

Stomper,

There is no denying that Jerry Miculek is a hell of a shooter and probably has forgotten more about firearms than most of us will ever know. There is a HUGE difference between being a proficient and accurate shooter on a range, and being a proficient shooter in a life threatening situation.

I asked the question because I saw courses from OFA, REACT, and several others being posted on here. As someone who has been involved in the tactical environment for years, I wouldn't ever waste my money on their classes. I also saw courses through individuals like Gabe Suarez, who is a fairly well known snake oil salesman that doesn't have any business teaching kids to shoot nerf guns, much less teaching anything "tactical".

So, I am wondering, of the classes that I see being pushed here, who has actually taken the time to vet these instructors and confirm that some of their more lofty claims are accurate. That is all.

Nobody "knows" how they'll perform under fire until they "know". Sometimes those that "know" have bad days and sheite the bed but the bottom line is; be instructed in the fundamentals of shooting and tactics covering as many diverse scenarios as possible.

As for someone offering to teach shooting skills and tactics; if they're teaching sound (and useful) principles to use your brain and practice sound actions/counter-actions (aka "tactics") under stress, then who gives a sheite if they claim they're a former Massad-Speznaz-SAS-SF-SEAL-RECON-SAR-GSG-STAAZI-Sniper/cook/paper-pusher... "principles is principles".

The whole goddammned country is falling to sheite from the inside-out, and there's WAY more important stuff than parsing over "commando posers" teaching combatives to concern ourselves with.

 

[MarkAd]

I can yes I have vetted instructors. I research products I buy. The OP has used a lot of verbiage and gotten nothing. But neither has he given anything.
He keeps saying has anyone done research? I ask why has he not done it?
He claims to be able to find so much about former military by simple request and FOIA request, but he is asking us if we have done the work for him.
I think he is a blow hard with no ability to apply his alleged skills to get us the answers he claims to want. I dealt with several like him in my career. But there I can make them get the answers.

 

[Stomper]

To late, Mark... We're already bored with this thread.

 

[MarkAd]

To late, Mark... We're already bored with this thread.

ah shucks, i guess i just have to shoot something.

 

[DClevenger]

Jesus Christ you guys are ridiculous. I came in here asking a question, nothing more nothing less. Am I capable of vetting people before I go to them for training, yes. Pretty much anyone is. I came in here asking if people had vetted any of these instructors because it tends to save people time if someone else can already say "Yes I have, here is the info you need."

Instead you guys are trying to jump at me for asking a question. Its hilarious. Do you have a problem with people vetting instructors? Are you threatened by someone saying they want proof of some of these claims?

Like I said, REACT already had to fire one guy. Gabe Suarez has been "outted" more times than I can count. It's not something that is uncommon in the firearms industry.

Based on the responses of some of you I'm left to conclude that you guys will toss cash at anyone that claims to be former Delta.

ZigZagZeke,

I didn't come in here to bubblegum on anyone. I came in here to ask a question. A question people immediate got pissy about, without ever answering it.

MTPockets,

People do look for training based on their needs, unfortunately a lot of people run around claiming they can meet those training needs when in truth they cannot. Hence my question. Wouldn't it make sense to have a resource you can turn to instead of throwing money at people and hoping for the best? Again, though, I disagree with the point you are making. Someone can develop all the muscle memory in the world, if that muscle memory hasn't been refined during high stress training it is unlikely they will perform well. Look at someone like Baret Fawbush. Dude is fast, good for him. No tactical background. No actual experience. Just a guy who can shoot fast. That's cool and all, but it doesn't mean he will be able to shoot fast when under stress.

Stomper,

What I am getting at is that there are a lot of people claiming to be an Operator/Delta/SF in order to take people's money and claiming that what they are teaching is sound when it actually isn't. Nothing wrong with trying to figure who the posers are before you spend a couple hundred bucks on their training.

MarkAd,

I have done my research on several instructors. I fail to see the issue with asking others if they have done theirs as well. Again, maybe someone has information I don't or access to information I don't. That's not lazy that just working smarter instead of harder. I didn't claim to have any skills. I said its FOIA. Any idiot that can type can do a FOIA request. If you have had to deal with several people like me in your career it must have been an enjoyable experience. Working with people that want to take the initiative and work together is always a good thing.

This conversation has seriously gone from insanely stupid to hilariously comical. Why are so many of you guys getting your panties in a knot because someone is asking if you have vetted an instructor? Someone has asked if you have done your research, in the hopes that we can all pool our research, knowledge, and time together to make training easier and smarter for everyone.

If you guys have a problem with that you obviously have some bigger bubbleguming issues in life to deal with. If you're so threatened by someone asking the question, it makes it pretty obvious that some of you guys must be pretty concerned about getting vetted or finding out some of the training you attended was bullbubblegum.

Either way, I don't care. The comment some of you guys have made are so insanely stupid it makes it pretty apparent this group isn't a resource for knowledge in training, it's a bunch of dudes wanting to stroke each others dicks. Good luck with that.

 

[slimmer13]

Really what difference does an instructors background have. How does how many combat tours an instructor served translate to my benefit? Is he going to teach me the 1000yd stare?

No, he is going to teach practical gun handling techniques. The techniques should be vetted. The real stuff is no secret and is researchable, therefore the fakers should be easy to spot.

You seem to be saying that the only worthwhile instructors have real combat experience, but by that reasoning, only real combat is worthwhile training.