In search of ffl capable of serializing homemade firearms

[truggudden]

I just chose not to bend over.

Oh man. Well someday you can die on whatever hill you want.

 

[ernhrtus]

I have a fiber laser and have done a few engravings that meet the requirements set forth by the ATF.

 

[Yarome]

I have a fiber laser and have done a few engravings that meet the requirements set forth by the ATF.

Unless you're an FFL... simply laser engraving some numbers/letters at the specified size and depth the alphabet requires would still not meet the serialization requirements of HB2005. It must be formatted properly and contain the appropriate information. Part of which is the first 3 and last 5 digits of the FFL's feeble license number. It also needs to be duly recorded in an FFL's A&D log.

 

[ernhrtus]

Unless you're an FFL... simply laser engraving some numbers/letters at the specified size and depth the alphabet requires would still not meet the serialization requirements of HB2005. It must be formatted properly and contain the appropriate information. Part of which is the first 3 and last 5 digits of the FFL's feeble license number. It also needs to be duly recorded in an FFL's A&D log.

You are correct.

 

[BECKHAM]

TRIPLE THREAT FIREARMS in Bend, Oregon is serializing PMF's (Privately Made Firearms) with their fiber laser engraver.

 

[Yarome]

You are correct.

It wasn't clear. So you're an FFL with a laser engraver offering serialization services for folks here?

 

[PiratePast40]

TRIPLE THREAT FIREARMS in Bend, Oregon is serializing PMF's (Privately Made Firearms) with their fiber laser engraver.

Here's their web site. Will be interesting to see who they list as the manufacturer. Could it be the person, not licensed, that will be listed as the manufacturer, or will it be Triple Threat Firearms, since their license numbers are being used in the serial number?

ETA: Just got a text back from them. They say that a manufacturers name and city are not required. The only requirements, according to their text, is that it's a combination of their FFL number and four extra digits. They don't say if there are reporting requirements.

 

[Yarome]

Here's their web site. Will be interesting to see who they list as the manufacturer. Could it be the person, not licensed, that will be listed as the manufacturer, or will it be Triple Threat Firearms, since their license numbers are being used in the serial number?

When PMF's are serialized the manufacturer in the A&D is recorded as "Primate made firearm" or "PMF". The MFG's requirements to have their name applied to the firearm itself does not apply to PMF's. It will only appear in the A&D and on a 4473.

Remember that, if a trace is initiated it is not going back to the original MFG but to the FFL that applied the SN... determined by the first digits of the SN. The first 3 and last 5 digits of the FFL's license number. Listing a "MFG" on the firearm itself would be pointless since the tracing info is already contained in the SN itself.

 

[PiratePast40]

When PMF's are serialized the manufacturer in the A&D is recorded as... wait for it... "Primate made firearm" or "PMF". The MFG's requirements to have their name applied to the firearm itself does not apply to PMF's. It will only appear in the A&D and on a 4473.

Remember that, if a trace is initiated it is not going back to the original MFG but to the FFL that applied the SN... determined by the first digits of the SN. The first 3 and last 5 digits of the FFL's license number. Listing a "MFG" on the firearm itself would be pointless since the tracing info is already contained in the SN itself.

I typed that into google and here's what I got:

AI Overview
Learn more…Opens in new tab

Primates have been observed making and using weapons, but there is no evidence that they have made firearms:

Chimpanzees make spears

In Senegal, researchers have observed wild chimpanzees making spears to hunt bushbabies. The chimpanzees would break off a branch, trim it, and sharpen it with their teeth. They would then poke the spear into a tree hollow where the bushbabies were hiding.

Primates can be taught to use guns

Some primatologists say that chimpanzees could be taught to use guns or other weapons because they are natural mimics. However, they would not have the cognitive ability to stockpile weapons and go after people.

The first guns were invented by the Chinese around 1000 CE. Their guns used gunpowder to shoot arrows out of a tube at high speeds.

Gotta love AI. Not sure whether to laugh or cry!

 

[PiratePast40]

So let's take a look at how HB2005 keeps criminals from making their own guns. Bad guy or gal takes p80 frame or 80% lower to a FFL to have a serial number put on it. FFL puts the S/N on it and hands it back to the bad guy or gal without recording any other personal information, and with no background check required since it doesn't stay overnight, the work is listed as gunsmithing, and federal law says nothing about a background check for something that is not a firearm.

I must not be very bright because I can't figure out how this improves public safety or keeps guns out of the hands of prohibited persons.

But wait you say! It's illegal to bring an unserialized frame, lower, firearm, bazooka, tractor, or anything else into Oregon. Brilliant concept, since criminals and ex-cons have never been known to break the law! Great job politicos! Getting paid to do absolutely nothing worthwhile while continuing to spend the taxpayers money! This is the very definition of being busy doing things that don't matter.

 

[Koda]

So let's take a look at how HB2005 keeps criminals from making their own guns. Bad guy or gal takes p80 frame or 80% lower to a FFL to have a serial number put on it. FFL puts the S/N on it and hands it back to the bad guy or gal without recording any other personal information, and with no background check required since it doesn't stay overnight, the work is listed as gunsmithing, and federal law says nothing about a background check for something that is not a firearm.

I must not be very bright because I can't figure out how this improves public safety or keeps guns out of the hands of prohibited persons.

But wait you say! It's illegal to bring an unserialized frame, lower, firearm, bazooka, tractor, or anything else into Oregon. Brilliant concept, since criminals and ex-cons have never been known to break the law! Great job politicos! Getting paid to do absolutely nothing worthwhile while continuing to spend the taxpayers money! This is the very definition of being busy doing things that don't matter.

This is assuming the FFL is going to accept the serialization job anymore after last sunday, their record books would show when they did the work.

After last Saturday, are any FFLs offering serialization services anymore?


It looks like 80% lowers still is (its possible they forgot to take the page down). Can anyone recall the legality of them offering the service after Sept 1st? If the gun is serialized, is their record book evidence of the owner breaking the law?

Serialization of 80% Lower Receivers Oregon - 80% Lowers

Serialization Service of 80% Lower Receivers for Oregon Residents who currently possess an 80 Percent Lower or Unserialized Receiver.

80lowers.com

 

[Yarome]

So let's take a look at how HB2005 keeps criminals from making their own guns. Bad guy or gal takes p80 frame or 80% lower to a FFL to have a serial number put on it. FFL puts the S/N on it and hands it back to the bad guy or gal without recording any other personal information, and with no background check required since it doesn't stay overnight, the work is listed as gunsmithing, and federal law says nothing about a background check for something that is not a firearm.

I must not be very bright because I can't figure out how this improves public safety or keeps guns out of the hands of prohibited persons.

But wait you say! It's illegal to bring an unserialized frame, lower, firearm, bazooka, tractor, or anything else into Oregon. Brilliant concept, since criminals and ex-cons have never been known to break the law! Great job politicos! Getting paid to do absolutely nothing worthwhile while continuing to spend the taxpayers money! This is the very definition of being busy doing things that don't matter.

Even if it stays overnight it doesn't require a BGC to return it to the owner. It's a gunsmithing service, not a transfer... but regardless... the SN application is going to be recorded if it's there for 10min or 3 days and is supposed to contain the persons full name and legal address.

The glitch there is that ID is not required for gunsmithing services. Just "on your honor" that you are providing your legal name and address. I would imagine some FFL';s will want to see ID in a failed belief they need to in order to CTA, but it's not legally required and they aren't breaking any law or have legal liability if they don't.

The legal presumption is that someone bringing in their firearm is lawfully able to possess it.

Pretty much as you're suggesting... HB2005 only impacts the law abiding but does absolutely nothing to deter bad actors from acting badly. Even if they provide a false name and address, that's on them for lying, not on the FFL for recording the information as provided. All intents and purposes... the bad actor would be in compliance.

This is assuming the FFL is going to accept the serialization job anymore after last sunday, their record books would show when they did the work.

After last Saturday, are any FFLs offering serialization services anymore?


It looks like 80% lowers still is (its possible they forgot to take the page down). Can anyone recall the legality of them offering the service after Sept 1st? If the gun is serialized, is their record book evidence of the owner breaking the law?

Serialization of 80% Lower Receivers Oregon - 80% Lowers

Serialization Service of 80% Lower Receivers for Oregon Residents who currently possess an 80 Percent Lower or Unserialized Receiver.

80lowers.com

There's no reason an FFL couldn't or wouldn't continue to provide the service. They aren't LE and aren't breaking any law or regulation by applying a SN. It's not an "illegal/crime gun" firearm per se. It's the possession of it that's illegal... but FFL's have a grace period for applying a SN after a PMF come into their possession. (IIRC, 7 days(?)) I guess if they really wanted to be an a-hole about it they could accept the job and .. instead of doing it... arrange for LE to be present when you go to pick it up and handing you back your frame/receiver still unserialized.

That would be sure to kill their business though once people found out they were actively setting people up. Even in that scenario though I doubt charges would stick since LE couldn't prove that you were "knowingly" in possession. A guy accepting it back would assume a SN was on it, right(?)

The other side of the coin though is... yeah. Creating a papertrail proving that you were not in compliance by the deadline could have the potential to jam a person up. I'm not sure how that would play though. You were, but you aren't now so... what exactly would be the point of wasting LE resources trying to jam people up for being a bit late? I mean... the end goal of the new law has been satisfied, so unless there is some other associated criminal activity..... why? Just to be a woke a-hole, because you can, and discourage others from going in to have their so called "ghost guns" duly registered past the deadline?

Totally counterproductive of their goal, but that side of the aisle defies any rational purpose on so many issues that I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they did... just for political clout to say, "see how tough I am against the 2A!"

 

[Koda]

I guess if they really wanted to be an a-hole about it they could accept the job and .. instead of doing it... arrange for LE to be present when you go to pick it up and handing you back your frame/receiver still unserialized.

That would be sure to kill their business though once people found out they were actively setting people up. Even in that scenario though I doubt charges would stick since LE couldn't prove that you were "knowingly" in possession. A guy accepting it back would assume a SN was on it, right(?)

To clarify I wasn't suggesting any FFL would or even consider doing that.

Im asking about the legality of offering the service after the law, and the legality of owning one serialized after the law.


If you used your gun in self defense, and since its obviously an 80% model they trace the serial and records show it was serialized after the date, thats some solid evidence you were in violation of the law. A prosecutor would certainly look for this in your trial.
Is it illegal to even possess an unfinished 80% frame now?

 

[Yarome]

To clarify I wasn't suggesting any FFL would or even consider doing that.

Im asking about the legality of offering the service after the law, and the legality of owning one serialized after the law.


If you used your gun in self defense, and since its obviously an 80% model they trace the serial and records show it was serialized after the date, thats some solid evidence you were in violation of the law. A prosecutor would certainly look for this in your trial.
Is it illegal to even possess an unfinished 80% frame now?

I know. I got that. I was just hypothesizing about what scenario would have to occur to jam a person up. Not that it would ever happen.

I don't think a person would ever be convicted of it, but I getcha. A prosecutor would certainly use it as evidence to try and show that you were not a responsible firearm owner and cast doubt on your character by showing that you are not "entirely"... a "law abiding citizen". The potential to do damage to a defense case is certainly there.

They are known to use the fact that you have had firearm safety training and have a CHL as evidence that you were just itching to use your firearm against others... so... a post deadline SN sure wouldn't help anyone.

 

[Koda]

I don't think a person would ever be convicted of it, but I getcha.

The way I understand it, even if its legal for the FFL to serialize it after the date. The only way you could get charged with SB2005 is if...
It was ever stolen, a) you have to report it b) if you dont highly likely it will turn up in a crime anyways.
You needed it in a lawful self defense scenario, especially a politically charged one.

And yes I do think liberal prosecutors would use any chance they get to charge anyone with any law based on your political leanings, whatever situation you get into with one.

(I call these "phantom guns" since they are legal ghost guns...)

 

[arakboss]

So let's take a look at how HB2005 keeps criminals from making their own guns. Bad guy or gal takes p80 frame or 80% lower to a FFL to have a serial number put on it. FFL puts the S/N on it and hands it back to the bad guy or gal without recording any other personal information, and with no background check required since it doesn't stay overnight, the work is listed as gunsmithing, and federal law says nothing about a background check for something that is not a firearm.

I must not be very bright because I can't figure out how this improves public safety or keeps guns out of the hands of prohibited persons.

But wait you say! It's illegal to bring an unserialized frame, lower, firearm, bazooka, tractor, or anything else into Oregon. Brilliant concept, since criminals and ex-cons have never been known to break the law! Great job politicos! Getting paid to do absolutely nothing worthwhile while continuing to spend the taxpayers money! This is the very definition of being busy doing things that don't matter.

I believe they record the customers info in the book.

 

[PiratePast40]

I believe they record the customers info in the book.

As long as nobody, with first hand knowledge, actually answers the question, we won't know. FFLs are surprisingly absent from these threads and those that have used their services don't seem to want to talk about it publicly. This is why rumors spread and the community stays closed.

 

[Yarome]

As long as nobody, with first hand knowledge, actually answers the question, we won't know. FFLs are surprisingly absent from these threads and those that have used their services don't seem to want to talk about it publicly. This is why rumors spread and the community stays closed.

As the saying goes, "I can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking my head up a bull's bubblegum, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it"

I don't necessarily believe it's "unknowable" without a first hand account. It's not classified info and FFL's have to be able to have ready access to this information as well. It seems pretty apparent if we read the alphabets directions to FFL's on what is required for their record keeping... doesn't it(?)

NSSF also put's out some great FFL guides in easy to understand language without all the legalese and ambiguities that have to be cross referenced in other publications and/or alphabet FAQ's to get a total picture. IE:

Compliance: Record Keeping for Repair Firearms

Every retailer must keep complete and accurate A&D records for all firearms taken in for repair, whether for cleaning or return to the manufacturer.

www.nssf.org

[Clip]
"Your record of firearms received for repair must contain a complete description of the firearm – manufacturer, importer (if any), model, serial number, type of firearm (not type of firearm action), and caliber or gauge.

It must contain the full name and complete street address of the individual who brought
it in for repair and the date it was brought in.

When the firearm is returned to the individual who brought it in for repair, the disposition side of the record must again contain the full name and complete street address of the individual who picked it up and the date it was returned to that individual. I know this is the same information that you entered on the acquisition side of the record, but no shortcuts are allowed, even when the firearm is returned to the same person from whom it was received.

If the firearm is returned to the same person who brought it in for repair, no Form 4473 or background check is required because the law says this is not a "transfer.""

 

[arakboss]

As long as nobody, with first hand knowledge, actually answers the question, we won't know. FFLs are surprisingly absent from these threads and those that have used their services don't seem to want to talk about it publicly. This is why rumors spread and the community stays closed.

Maybe @HighLine will share what info he records when doing PMF serialization job for a customer?

 

[arakboss]

As long as nobody, with first hand knowledge, actually answers the question, we won't know. FFLs are surprisingly absent from these threads and those that have used their services don't seem to want to talk about it publicly. This is why rumors spread and the community stays closed.

I sent a message to ADR Tactical in Springfield to see if they are still offering the serialzation service and what customer info they record in their A&D book when recording a newly created serial number for PMF.