IMR 4064 "abundance"

pinne65 · Mar 3, 2015

Is there anything wrong with this powder? In my Speer #14 reloading manual it's listed in a lot of loads between .223 and 45-70. I realize it might be a little hard to meter due to being flaked. I've only used it in 308 but it's been very consistent.

I'm new to rifle reloading but this was the only powder I could get hold of. I'm also about ready to pull the trigger on a progressive LNL so I'm interested how well it would work on 308 in that press.

deadeye · Mar 3, 2015

I use it for 243, 45/70, 30-30, 223, 22-250 with no issues. I recall this being stick powder not flake though.

Darkker · Mar 4, 2015

Chrikey!!
The first caller is correct, that is an extruded powder, NOT a flake powder; very important differences.
Metering..... Always with the metering where people get confused. Since you are new to reloading, pay attention to this part very carefully; 99% of the world gets this part wrong.

Extruded powder has it's burning rate controlled by geometry. "Metering" powder means you are loading by volume, pay attention to that word. Volume as in cups, ml, cc, NOT grains! They are not the same thing. All powder has a nominal burning rate, a nominal Bulk Density. That means it is impossible to ALWAYS have the same WEIGHT of powder, in the same VOLUME.
Despite what web ninjas may day to the contrary, due to the geometry controlled burn rate, cutting kernels does NOT significantly alter burning rate. So load away!

As a side warning about that powder/info. That manual is now quite old. That powder is now made by different folks than when Speer last did pressure testing themselves. The manufacturing plant is in the same location, but last summer was totally rebuilt and re-done. Don't expect nothing to have changed. Better check the reseller (Hodgdon's) website for current data.

gunfreak · Mar 4, 2015

Yeah, I been picking up 4064 all over. I use it for all the rifles I own and have enough to send ISIS a care package...
:s0021:

Classic · Mar 4, 2015

It's a well known .223 and .308 powder.
Trust your scale since this is the only way you have to be consistent.

pinne65 · Mar 4, 2015

Oops - should have said "not a ball powder" and looked in the powder jar first. So far, since I'm working up loads,I've weighed each load to 1/10 grain. Looking at the Hodgdon site it seems like the loads for 308 are pretty much in line with what I remember from the speer manual.

Bon Sauvage · Mar 4, 2015

It is also an excellent powder for the 30-06 should you decide to go that route.

ron · Mar 4, 2015

I have gone through many 8 pound kegs of IMR 4064. I have found it to be the
most accurate powder I have tested for 308 and 30/06 loads. It is also safe to use
for a M1 Garand.

pinne65 · Mar 4, 2015

Thanks - I'll keep stocking up every once in a while then.

Darkker - I know the difference between weighing and metering and have noticed a quite significant variation for Blue Dot and Unique, .2-.4 grains, when weighing metered loads for my handguns. But unless I was close to min/max loads I never really cared that much - figuring it would be more my shooting than the rounds / gun that limited accuracy.

But I don't understand what you are saying here: "Despite what web ninjas may day to the contrary, due to the geometry controlled burn rate, cutting kernels does NOT significantly alter burning rate. So load away!"

Are you saying that the variation in weight for a given metered volume of this powder is not enough to affect accuracy and put a max load in the danger zone.

safooma · Mar 5, 2015

I use it for 308 and M1 Garand and love it. I haven't seen it much for a while though, where are you seeing it. I used to get it a bi-mart all the time, but my local stores haven't carried it for a while now.

ron · Mar 5, 2015

I have seen 8 lb kegs at Sportsman Warehouse. See my post in competition
about Garand match at DRRC this Saturday.

Steve M · Mar 5, 2015

safooma said:
I haven't seen it much for a while though, where are you seeing it.

Sportsman's Warehouse in Hillsboro usually has a few 1lb cans hanging about and lately has had some 8lb kegs. This week Fisherman's in Tigard got in a full 10x of 1lb cans. Over the past year IMR-4064 has been the most reliable and frequent find in my area.

rick benjamin · Mar 5, 2015

"4064 - Is there anything wrong with this powder?"
This is a fine powder, I use it for 556, 308, 30.06, 45.70. It's tubular, so the long tubes get cut when I use my RCBS powder measure. Takes a little extra bit of muscle to cut the tubes.

"4064 - This was the only powder I could get hold of"
Lots more people, lots more demand, for lots of reasons.

When I can't get what I want, I go after the nearest closest.
Powder burns faster, slower, depending on chemistry and what other powder it's compared to.
There isn't an absolute number, however manufacturers group powders according to burn rate.

A group of powders near IMR4064's burn rate relatively speaking:
IMR4895, IMR4320, tubular
WW748, WW760, ball
Hodgdon BLC-2, H-335, H4895, Varget
Alliant REL-12, REL-15
Accurate A-2520, A-4064 (A-4064 is not the same as IMR4064)

Please!
work-up your loads, don't ignore high pressure warning signs!
Make notes of each load, bullet, case, primer, primer pocket, results, comments
Invest in a bullet chronograph. I have used a Chrony F for thirty + years.
With a chronograph, I have confirmation of bullet speed. No more wild guesses!

Darkker · Mar 16, 2015

pinne65 said:
But I don't understand what you are saying here: "Despite what web ninjas may day to the contrary, due to the geometry controlled burn rate, cutting kernels does NOT significantly alter burning rate. So load away!"

Are you saying that the variation in weight for a given metered volume of this powder is not enough to affect accuracy and put a max load in the danger zone.

That is precisely what I am saying, and what I said 99% of folks don't understand, even after they say they do... However!! You put a twist on it with the words "a max load".
So let's go over this again:

If you load extruded powder by WEIGHT, you have a moving case fill % every time due to the constant bulk density shifts. that will alter your powders burning rate. Extruded powder has it's burning rate controlled by geometry, or it's volume, not it's bulk density or weight. Control the burning rate, control the results.

Now your "max load": Most importantly, consistency is always better than the alternative. Volume with extruded is more consistent, period. Now perhaps it's merit is lost with your setup, that can always be debated.
What are you calling a Max load? Book, primers, case expansion? I call a Max load one that registers an average of just under 60,000 psi on the Pressure Trace system. The reason it is important to note the difference is where you are in the powder. I've had a few friends call to ask for help in load work because "when they lowered the charge, it sped up". I just about shot whiskey out my nose when I was first told that. That powder was on the verge of deflagration.

Here is a much safer example of that point. This load shows NO primer issues, NO brass stretching, NO extraction trouble, NO hard recoil, and NO extra fast velocity, AND is within published load amounts. If you just "read" brass, this isn't a Max load yet. Now Look at the velocities and pressures.

pinne65 · Mar 18, 2015

Thanks!

Still digesting your response - realizing I need to do some more research to fully understand it.

I had to look up deflagration and I'm still not sure I understand it. The way you described made it sound like a bad thing. Whereas some of the descriptions I've seen online, Wikipedia, makes it seem like it's just the normal way gunpowder burns.

I was referring to book max-loads. I've never exceed those max loads by more than a couple of 1/10 grains for pistol rounds, just hoping to observe some of pressure signs on cases and primers.

And I'm just now starting out with bottleneck rifle reloading, discovering it's a completely different beast.

I'm using my old RCBS Rock Chucker Starting kit. With powder scale and measure. I'm not able to judge the accuracy of the metered powder measure. And have totally been relying on the weighted scale.

Do I understand the diagram correctly - you fired five rounds of 308, same load?

The double bump in the pressure curve for T1 looks weird. I've never seen any pressure data on loads before.

Skål!

Darkker · Mar 20, 2015

Perhaps I used the term inappropriately, the point was when the burn rate "runs away". When the progressive burn goes out of control. That leads to dangerous secondary ignitions and then, detonation. Detonation, unless you own a rock quarry, is VERY bad.

Yes, T1 was an example of secondary ignition. Nearly 70,000psi. That type of event is exactly what caused Mr. Sisk, from Sisk rifles to blow the barrels completely of some of his rifles.
This output comes from a Pressure Trace, you can but them here:
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

Book Max is usually over Max, in production guns. Book loads are produced in pressure barrels. Those will have SAAMI min spec grooves, lands, chambers. Production rifles don't have those. So if your velocity matches book, your pressure is above theirs.

Reading brass/primers is also dangerous. Again to at my trace above. Primers have no alloy spec. Brass also does not, there are many "brass" recipes. The metals handbook states cartridge brass tensile strength of about 70,000psi. So that is your pressure range when you can measure stretch.
Now IF they used the Olin alloy C260 that was common during the hay day of the 30-06, that alloy was heat treated to 86,000psi. But no one today will tell you the alloy they sell.

Don't mistake this as a holier-than-thou speech. I don't care what loads anyone wants to use. Just know the reality about what is going on. Very carefully calibrated copper crushers are known to report inaccurately by swings of 15,000psi. Very UNCALIBRATED primers and cases aren't magically going to tell you pressures.

pinne65 · Mar 21, 2015

Deflagration - a forward propagating burn in the cartridge with a peak in pressure and then as the volume increases behind the bullet leaving the barrel, it drops off. That's kind of how I intuitively understand it. The graphs seems to indicate that the bullets leave the cartridge between .5 and .75 ms.

Reading some more reloading theory makes me think T2 maybe had more neck tension or something than the other cartridges fired? It's interesting to notice that the highest peak pressure didn't produce the highest muzzle velocity.

T1 - too much powder, or what would cause a curve like that.

The pressure Trace device sure looks like a another thing I'd like to have for reloading. This hobby gets increasingly more interesting and expensive ;-).