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Illegal to hide a pistol inside your vehicle so it is there full time?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Burt Gummer, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    I would like to have a second pistol in my vehicle(s) at all times (CHL holder).

    Don't want to put it where a thief would focus on it like the glove box, trunk or even a safe that could be pried out.

    I would not be need to retrieve it frequently or have instant access to it. Someplace like inside a doorliner, way up inside the dashboard, etc.

    Primarily as a SHTF get back home type scenario or a rare time when not carrying. Could be unloaded with mag(s) nearby. Oregon, but sometimes crossing into WA. Not interested in breaking any laws or gray areas, just was wondering if this is OK and doable. No one ever drives my cars but me. Thanks.
     
    Sgt Nambu and (deleted member) like this.
  2. PX4WA

    PX4WA Tacoma, WA Active Member

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    as far as WA goes, if you have a non-resident CPL and it is out of sight, you're legal... loaded or not...

    don't know about OR laws...
     
  3. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Usually only if WA recognizes the out of state CWP.

    WA doesn't recognize an OR CHL nor does OR recognize a WA CPL so you need separate licenses like I have.

    I carry a loaded .44 spec with CT laser in my car in a low compartment. I also have a locking metal car safe for times I have to leave my vehicle, it'll hold both the .44 and my .45 carry gun. There is also a locking compartment in the floor of the vehicle but it's a plastic lid so no real protection.
     
  4. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Washington doesn't recognize an OR CHL. Is an unloaded 'concealed' handgun ok when not on my person, but concealed within a vehicle?

    If WA is a bust, then so goes the whole idea since it wouldn't be practical to remove the handgun when going over to WA every couple weeks. They way it would be hidden would almost be semi-permanent and would take a few minutes for even me to gain access to it.

    Going to the Clark County sheriff for a CHL there is an option I guess, but lets assume only an Oregon CHL for now.
     
  5. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    At one time I held a WA CHL as well as an OR CHL where I am a resident. The WA permit was not difficult or expensive to get but I do not know about WA's current policies. It was mighty convient to be able to legally carry in both states!
     
  6. PX4WA

    PX4WA Tacoma, WA Active Member

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    I meant having a WA non-resident CPL issued by WA state... not that difficult to get, no appointments needed, just make sure you go on days they accept applications...

    an unloaded handgun that is locked away either in the trunk or in an opaque container is legal in WA as far as I am aware.. not a lawyer so not giving legal advice...

    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.


    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.
     
  7. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Yeah, that is the problem. If my vehicle is stolen or ransacked the trunk is the first place they'll dig through and with the electronic trip-lock 'button' it is always accessible if you gain entry to the vehicle.

    I was hoping to be able to have a very well hidden place where if my car is broken into I'm not contributing to lowlifes having another gun in their possession. The places that are typically 'ok' - like the glove box or trunk is like just handing the car thief a gun.
     
  8. M67

    M67 NW Oregon Active Member

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    Burt,

    Get your Washigton non-resident CPL and all will be well.

    It is a piece of cake. I just stopped into the local PD, did the paperwork, paid the money, etc.. and i had it in a couple of weeks.

    I have family in Washington and it sure is nice to be able to CC, there as well.

    If you travel more than i do, you can get a Utah CC permit.
     
  9. Burt Gummer

    Burt Gummer Portland Completely Out of Ammo

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    Yeah, I guess that is really the way to go. Thanks.
     
  10. samuelm16

    samuelm16 se pdx Well-Known Member

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    under the hood would be the safest place in a ziploc bag in the air box or make a container from a junkyard car part that will look natural
     
  11. fd15k

    fd15k Tigard,OR Well-Known Member

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    If it's unloaded and in a locked container such as this (or trunk, but trunk is less flexible) :

    LongHinge1911.jpg

    In Car Gun Lockers

    then by Federal law (FOPA) it is being transported, and state requirements for "possession" and/or "concealment" are irrelevant.
    There is also an opposite note of the Federal law should be made - if the firearm (handgun or long gun) is not in a locked container, and the person does not have a carry license issued in the given state (reciprocity won't work), then one might be in violation of the School Zone act (GFSZA).
     
  12. Grommit327

    Grommit327 Buckley Active Member

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    My car was stolen in July and I had a pistol safe under the seat....empty of course since it was overnight. The car was found 16ish hours later and was just a shell. I found part of the safe locking cable where they had ripped it apart...guess it just takes a good tug. There was no place in the car that I would have trusted a gun to stay hidden. All trim, dash, door panels were ripped out. Seats and trunk was torn apart. Hell even the spare and jack were gone.

    My policy now is that everything gets stripped out of the car every night. Sunglasses, coffe cup, paperwork etc
     
  13. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    In Washington,an unloaded gun isn't a problem from whatever state you are from,only a loaded gun.
    You can have a rifle with the magazine laying right next to it.It isn't loaded and it is fine.
    Same with pistols. You can only have a loaded pistol(hand gun) if you have a carry permit recognized by Wa.
    They do need to be out of site if you leave the vehicle,though

    Remember Burt,thieves are usually druggies.Druggies know how to hide sh!t. Hence they know where to look for goodies.
    One piece of brass will make them want to look for guns.

    hey hope we are helping you out.
     
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  14. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Since I live in WA and go to OR almost daily (or did) I got my OR permit. Now all I have to do is remember the different laws of each state!
     
  15. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    And in OR you can't have a loaded magazine near the handgun or rifle, it must be locked away separately or it's considered "loaded" if the magazine has ammo in it. In WA you just have to be sure the magazine isn't "locked" in to the weapon.
    Aren't laws fun?!!!!!!!!!
     
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  16. Akathepriest

    Akathepriest Astoria, OR Active Member

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    Um, thats without a CHL. If you have that, then no problem.
     
  17. RB87

    RB87 Oregon Active Member

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    I don't see where in the law you listed that it requires the loaded mag to be "near" the handgun or rifle. It just says chamber, "locked in place in the firearm", cylinder, tube mag etc..
     
  18. fd15k

    fd15k Tigard,OR Well-Known Member

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    Is your question about Oregon ? Anyway, just in case for anybody who is interested:

    166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:
    ...
    ...
    (3) “Loaded firearm” means:

    (a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.

    As long as a loaded mag is not inserted (or attached, such as via ready mag or stock pouch), firearm is not loaded by this definition. However a shell holder on a shotgun seems to make such shotgun loaded. Although of course got to check the case law as well...
     
  19. CounterOfBeans

    CounterOfBeans northwest Active Member

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    "Aren't laws fun?!!!!!!!!!" indeed. So here's a guy who simply wants to enjoy his right to keep and bear arms for his own security. And people keep saying that you don't need any special permission paperwork at home of course, but if you need to defend yourself or others outside the security of your own home, that's when you better have all your T's crossed and i's dotted, lest you find out the hard way what happens when you unwittingly step on one of those hard to detect legal mines found somewhere in the concealed carry laws in however many States you want to travel to.

    When you boil this down, Burt Gummer's inquiry comes from a place of fear. A place we all spend a lot of time in because we lack information. And since we all know that "knowledge is power", the lack of it is a lack of power, a lack of control, a lack of personal autonomy to decide how best to provide for our own interests. We have to look in the mirror and say to ourselves that we have been trained to fear the exercise of our own rights....to fear the desire to protect ourselves or others. All because we take authority figures' word for it that that's what the law says, and that if you want to be known as a law-abiding Citizen, you better get used to the anxiety of wanting to exercise your rights within the ostensible guidelines set out by those who serve and protect your rights.

    Let's pull back the carpet on the core intent, the Legislative intent, of these concealed "permit" or concealed "license" laws that keep getting used as a pry bar that separates us from being able to function as responsible adults should. Criminals aren't going to care about this stuff anyway and they never will. Only "law-abiding" Citizens are being interfered with by these "laws". I posted the following in the "The Direction of Law Enforcement" thread in the General Firearm Discussion forum, in response to JGRuby who asked the fair and honest question...why a nationwide CCW would be so bad. I'm not trying to toot my horn here. I just want people to start waking up to something that hasn't been a part of the legal disclosure language on concealed carry applications:

    "CCW is a "licensing" or "permit" thing right? You have, as most Citizens have, been trained from a young age to believe that the concept of "licensing" the public is legitimate and lawful. That training has been so effective that most people have no reason to question it. But they don't teach us even the basics of law in K-12 public education, like how to accurately read the law for ourselves to tell whether or not someone is blowing smoke. Sometimes words have different meanings in the law than what we think they do. "License" is a perfect example of that. Here is its definition in Oregon at ORS 183.310(5):

    "183.310 Definitions for chapter. As used in this chapter:
    (5) “License” includes the whole or part of any agency permit, certificate, approval, registration or similar form of permission required by law to pursue any commercial activity, trade, occupation or profession."

    Notice how it only refers to "commercial" activity? The Legislature inserted no other words in this definition to cause it to apply to anything else. As a result, it applies to nothing else. And to make sure that readers don't take the liberty of putting words in their mouths, the Legislature has passed laws to prohibit even judges from adding words or omitting words from the law in order to suit their pre-conceived notions, personal biases or agendas. See ORS 174.010 below:

    "CONSTRUCTION OF STATUTES

    174.010 General rule for construction of statutes. In the construction of a statute, the office of the judge is simply to ascertain and declare what is, in terms or in substance, contained therein, not to insert what has been omitted, or to omit what has been inserted; and where there are several provisions or particulars such construction is, if possible, to be adopted as will give effect to all."

    Simply put, the law applies exclusively only to what is inserted into it by... the Legislature. If it is legitimate to insinuate the inclusion of other things into the law, willy nilly, then what's the point of writing the law to begin with if it can simply be added to or subtracted from in order to fit whatever special interest might come along with the shifting political winds. That would render the whole idea of having laws at all moot and make legislators irrelevant. And last I looked legislators are required in a Republican form of government.

    When the Legislature chooses to omit words in a law, it's because they recognize that those words are not properly connected to the purpose or context of that law and its subject matter. They do this because the Oregon Constitution requires them to. They must restrict any single law to one subject and matters that are properly connected to that one subject. See Or. Const. Art 4, Section 20:

    "Section 20. Subject and title of Act. Every Act shall embrace but one subject, and matters properly connected therewith, which subject shall be expressed in the title. But if any subject shall be embraced in an Act which shall not be expressed in the title, such Act shall be void only as to so much thereof as shall not be expressed in the title."

    Getting back to your question...now you know that a "license" or "permit" or "registration" pertains ONLY to people who want to pursue "commercial" activities, trades, occupations or professions. Your right to keep and bear arms is not a "commercial" activity. It's your right and you don't need "permission" to pursue it. If you do need permission, then it stops being a right, doesn't it? So if you insist on being enthusiastic about a national CCW program, you only have a passion for throwing your rights away, not to mention those of your fellow Americans. Rights that have already been paid for with the blood of our founding fathers and successive generations of our military."
     
  20. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Come back and let us know how that works out for you.

    You know, right after you get out of prison! :lolbeat: