Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

If you ccw this is worth reading

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by torrejon224, Jul 10, 2010.

  1. torrejon224

    torrejon224 Springfield, OR Member

    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    2
    I recently became aware of and joined an organization known as the Armed Citizens Defense Network whose board members include Massad Ayoob and Marty/Gila Hayes of the Seattle Firearms Academy. If you worry about the aftermath of a shooting incident and what may happen to you and your family, this web site is well worth researching, if not than I'll assume you have either a lot of $$ and high priced attornies for friends. Seriouslly, this is something that will hit home. If this has already been posted then I apologize but a search turned up nothing. www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2010
  2. HalfNutz

    HalfNutz Kirkland (Juanita) Member

    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    4
    Link does not work.
     
  3. torrejon224

    torrejon224 Springfield, OR Member

    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    2
    No idea why it won't work as the info is correct. Anyway it's well worth pursuing and hey whats a few keystrokes?
     
  4. gunnails

    gunnails Hillsboro Active Member

    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    210
  5. eriknemily

    eriknemily Tillamook County (Cheese!) Member

    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    21
    Link simply has an extra http in it. Here's a good LINK
     
  6. HalfNutz

    HalfNutz Kirkland (Juanita) Member

    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    4

    That worked. Looks very similar to PrePaid Legal Services of which I am a member, but not for much longer.

    After 10 years of membership it is my opinion that these HMO type legal plans are crap. Attorneys spend the least amount of time possible on your issue, etc.

    IMO, you're better off just hiring an attorney on an as-needed basis.
     
  7. torrejon224

    torrejon224 Springfield, OR Member

    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    2
    I used to use a prepaid legal service also which I had as part of union benefits and it saved me quite a bit of $$. Two divorces didn't cost me a cent and quite a bit of misc legal paperwork like wills, etc. Some are bad and others aren't, what I like about the one posted is it's totally for self defense shootings and every little bit counts in todays economy!! There is also a writeup about it in the current isue of Combat Handguns. Thanks to whoever corrected the link!
     
  8. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    4,907
    Likes Received:
    5,856
    I kinda agree with 1/2 nutz.

    Looks from the outside very much like prepaid legal.
    Somebody once told me that hiring an attorney or giving them their retainer ahead of time could be seen as premeditation...... I'll stick with a number in my wallet.
     
  9. eriknemily

    eriknemily Tillamook County (Cheese!) Member

    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    21
    Didn't try to 1up you gunnails. When I posted my comment I didn't see anything past the second post. Phantom bugs of the late NWFA server is what I blame this error on:D
     
  10. simpleguy

    simpleguy Clackamas Active Member

    Messages:
    627
    Likes Received:
    95
    This has been started by Marty Hayes, owner of the Firearms Academy of Seattle, he is also a lawyer.
     
  11. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

    Messages:
    6,272
    Likes Received:
    4,550
    Fixed the link for ya ;)
     
  12. gunnails

    gunnails Hillsboro Active Member

    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    210
    ========================================

    No worries Erick..
     
  13. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Funny how defending ones self,family and propertys legality depends on who is in office. You would think laws written would hold true all the time but it seems to depend on who is in office and their agenda as to if you will be procecuted or let go.

    jj
     
  14. eriknemily

    eriknemily Tillamook County (Cheese!) Member

    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    21
    It's a sad truth. You can often be at the DA's mercy depending on his agenda or philosophical ideas.
     
  15. drew

    drew OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    970
    I saw a place a booth at the last Portland gun show that offered a similar service. Can't remember their name though.
     
  16. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    11
    Yep, because attorneys who sign up for these plans are forced to bill at something like half their normal rate for clients that the plans refer to them. Some of them treat plan members poorly. If they have other clients that they can bill out at their normal rate, there's no incentive for them to do anything for you. If they don't have other clients, they're either bad lawyers or unhappy/unlucky businesspeople. Others are just fine, as a previous poster mentioned. They're happy to take work at a reduced rate because a. it's still an ample rate and b. word of mouth from happy clients is the best marketing tool they have.

    Legal services plans are set up like dental or vision plans, in that they provide a limited amount of discount services to members - not like homeowners or car insurance, which spread risk around. They can be a good deal if somebody else is paying for them, but aren't generally a great deal for an individual.


    This "Legal Defense Network" is not like any of those things. It's more like emergency evacuation insurance for travelers: it might not seem very expensive, but it's a much worse deal than, say, car insurance because of the extremely low likelihood you'll ever use it. This plan is a rip-off because of how much they charge for the benefits you get: $135/year for a $5000 payment that no more than 1/10,000 or fewer "members" will ever receive. Not only that, if you shoot someone and get in trouble, additional assistance is provided at the discretion of the "network," and no particular payment is guaranteed:

    I, personally, would not want the person holding the purse strings for my defense deciding whether my claim was meritorious or not.

    A real, comprehensive insurance plan designed to help people in these kinds of situations would be great. Whoever runs this "network" wants to imply that it is such a plan, but it's not. It's not insurance at all. Although paying to defend yourself against a murder or manslaughter charge could bankrupt you, you'd probably have to pay for it whether or not you signed up for this service. Yeah, they'll pay you five grand, but most of us could scratch that up in an emergency. If you couldn't, you'd be given a public defender who, in the Northwest at least, would give you a perfectly adequate representation.

    I'm much more willing to pay $30/month to a company that will spend $50k to fly me home if I break my leg in a jungle somewhere. Even though traveler's health/evacuation insurance is undoubtedly a bit of a ripoff, it's sold in a competitive market, and the benefits are specifically detailed.


    1. Signing up for a legal services plan is not hiring a lawyer any more than signing up for a vision plan is hiring an optometrist.

    2. Even hiring a lawyer ahead of time absolutely positively cannot be seen as premeditation, unless you go to a lawyer, hire her, and tell her "I'm about to kill someone. Please represent me."

    3. A business might have a lawyer "on retainer" to answer legal questions on an as-needed basis, but most criminal defense lawyers charge flat fees based on the amount of time they expect to spend on a case. There's no reason to pay them ahead of time - your money would just sit in their trust account and the interest would help pay for legal aid programs.

    Keeping a trusted defense lawyer's business card in your wallet and some cash in your bank account is the best idea of all.


    Really, this is all anybody needs to know about lawyers and self-defense:

    Until you either hire or are given a lawyer: Don't talk to the police. Even if you know you didn't do anything wrong. Even if it's the most clear-cut and obvious case of self-defense ever. Even if you know the officer. If you've had to shoot somebody, or shoot at them, don't talk to the police until you have a lawyer. Don't say one word about what happened. Even if it wasn't your fault. Just tell them, "I want an attorney." If you feel like you have to let them know you're a good guy, you can tell them "I have every intention of cooperating, but I will not speak to you without an attorney. I want an attorney." Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.
     
  17. drew

    drew OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    970
    Excellent advice. Make sure you talk to a lawyer. Also make sure you call the cops and let them know you are the victim. Don't leave or do other things to make them thing you are the BG.

    Try to wait until you are calm, collected, and have adequate time to talk to your lawyer before you make your statement. Remember police are there to investigate a potential crime. Mistakes increase your likelihood of going to prison.

    That service actually has some good advice on what to do after a shooting and some horrible examples of people getting convicted for their errors.
     
  18. gunnails

    gunnails Hillsboro Active Member

    Messages:
    752
    Likes Received:
    210
    ===============================================

    Best advice ever, we all must remember to keep are mouths shut, any thing you say can and will be used against you.
     
  19. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    11
    Yeah, the folks who run it do have a wealth of experience and knowledge, but the rest of it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
     
  20. Doug Wilson

    Doug Wilson Lafayette, OryGun New Member

    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a very low opinion of ayoob.

    I have a nickname for him, but I won't use it here.

    Doug