If Winchester brought back the .351 WSL rifle today...

[Captain O]

Would it sell? Given a Lead bullet of 180 grains leaving a 20" barrel at 1870 fps and mustering 1400 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle of a 20" barrel. The .351 WSL was a favorite with the police, gangsters and mid-range deer and black bear hunters. When it comes to serving as a PDW, it more than "fills the bill" with manageable recoil and more than adequate power. (Bad guys didn't live too long when the 180-grain made it's way through them).

Would it sell today, or have we outgrown the desire to shoot steel and wood rifles that can be enjoyed as they were when they first hit the market in 110 years ago?

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[uscsoldier]

Pass

 

[Captain O]

Pass

Water?

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think @ageingstudent regularly knocks the cobwebs off a one a those.. or maybe it's a .401 WSL.
Me, I just use a 12ga semi-auto slug gun like a normal person.

 

[Ownerus]

Close. I've often thought a rimless .357 mag in an appropriately upscaled M1 Carbine would be the ticket.
Reintroducing it in the original .352 bore would be good for the current owners but I dont think it would help the appeal to new owners, especially reloaders. .357 bore size for bullet availability and maybe a semi rimmed case could allow function in revolvers AND box magazine fed semi-autos.

 

[Captain O]

Close. I've often thought a rimless .357 mag in an appropriately upscaled M1 Carbine would be the ticket.
Reintroducing it in the original .352 bore would be good for the current owners but I don't think it would help the appeal to new owners, especially reloaders. .357 bore size for bullet availability and maybe a semi-rimmed case could allow function in revolvers AND box magazine fed semi-autos.

Isn't bullet availability derived from demand? A Ruger Mini-14 might be a better platform. Believe it or not, the 9 x 39 Russian might be a better idea for the .357" diameter projectile (I posted this in another thread). The Russians based this on the 7.62 x 39 case necked up to accept a .355" bullet. This was used in a "modern" version of the Atmovat Kalashnikov platform. Remember, the Mini-14 has already been chambered for the 7.62 x 39 Russian cartridge. Why not the 9 x 39 Russian?

The .30 Carbine platform has been used to chamber the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge and it worked fairly well. (Too bad no one is producing that carbine today). Believe it or not, a .357 Magnum rimless cartridge in the .30 Carbine platform would prove less efficient than the .30 Carbine. The .30 Carbine was derived from the .32 Winchester Self Loading Rifle. The military demanded a .30 caliber bullet for a PDW "light rifle". This resulted in the M1 and M2 Carbine. The M2 (select-fire version) was only made by the Inland Division of General Motors in Dayton, Ohio.

 

[MrNatural]

Would it sell?

1. Winchester would fly all their prostitutes (i.e. "gun writers") to an all-expense-paid week-long Bacchanal wherein the new and wondrous virtues of the "brand-new" .351 were extolled.

2. Winchester would commit to buy large amounts of advertising in various brothels (i.e. "gun magazines") to run the articles resulting from 1.

3. We would see cover stories like "The .351 Winchester, Is It The Ultimate Round?" and "That Perfect .351"

4. The gun biz hangers-on and wannabes would pick up the "vibe". Paid sock-puppets would flood postings on various gun boards. Winchester would have made prior arrangement to "sponsor" (i.e. pay off) the largest gun boards. Any naysayers would be silenced by the Dolores Umbridge Brigade (i.e. moderators).

5. The .351 would become "the latest thing."

6. EVERYONE knows the latest thing MUST be the best, because it's new! If it wasn't better, they wouldn't have introduced it, right?

7. A BUNCH of camouflaged cretins would buy it.

8. It would take reality a few years to catch up with it and eventually it would fade into oblivion like so many "new" cartridges.

But in the short run, sure it would sell.

Very few people have lost money overestimating the gullibility of the American consumer.

P.T. Barnum was wrong - it's more like every ten seconds.

 

[Certaindeaf]

1. Winchester would fly all their prostitutes (i.e. "gun writers") to an all-expense-paid week-long Bacchanal wherein the new and wondrous virtues of the "brand-new" .351 were extolled.

2. Winchester would commit to buy large amounts of advertising in various brothels (i.e. "gun magazines") to run the articles resulting from 1.

3. We would see cover stories like "The .351 Winchester, Is It The Ultimate Round?" and "That Perfect .351"

4. The gun biz hangers-on and wannabes would pick up the "vibe". Paid sock-puppets would flood postings on various gun boards. Winchester would have made prior arrangement to "sponsor" (i.e. pay off) the largest gun boards. Any naysayers would be silenced by the Dolores Umbridge Brigade (i.e. moderators).

5. The .351 would become "the latest thing."

6. EVERYONE knows the latest thing MUST be the best, because it's new! If it wasn't better, they wouldn't have introduced it, right?

7. A BUNCH of camouflaged cretins would buy it.

8. It would take reality a few years to catch up with it and eventually it would fade into oblivion like so many "new" cartridges.

But in the short run, sure it would sell.

Very few people have lost money overestimating the gullibility of the American consumer.

P.T. Barnum was wrong - it's more like every ten seconds.

Indeed. And the "I like turtles" kid would change it up to "I like .351 WSL".
betcha

 

[Captain O]

1. Winchester would fly all their prostitutes (i.e. "gun writers") to an all-expense-paid week-long Bacchanal wherein the new and wondrous virtues of the "brand-new" .351 were extolled.

2. Winchester would commit to buy large amounts of advertising in various brothels (i.e. "gun magazines") to run the articles resulting from 1.

3. We would see cover stories like "The .351 Winchester, Is It The Ultimate Round?" and "That Perfect .351"

4. The gun biz hangers-on and wannabes would pick up the "vibe". Paid sock-puppets would flood postings on various gun boards. Winchester would have made prior arrangement to "sponsor" (i.e. pay off) the largest gun boards. Any naysayers would be silenced by the Dolores Umbridge Brigade (i.e. moderators).

5. The .351 would become "the latest thing."

6. EVERYONE knows the latest thing MUST be the best, because it's new! If it wasn't better, they wouldn't have introduced it, right?

7. A BUNCH of camouflaged cretins would buy it.

8. It would take reality a few years to catch up with it and eventually it would fade into oblivion like so many "new" cartridges.

But in the short run, sure it would sell.

Very few people have lost money overestimating the gullibility of the American consumer.

P.T. Barnum was wrong - it's more like every ten seconds.

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have asked, Would it be worth having another .35 Remington Self Loader? This, in essence, was the original role of the cartridge. Granted the bullet was heavy (180-grains) and the .35 Remington used a 200-grain soft-point bullet. I was attempting to view this from a practical aspect.

If you recall, with limited success, Winchester reintroduced Teddy Roosevelt's "Lion Medicine" (the Lever Action .405 Winchester). Yes, it was marketing, but the old .4115" 300-grain soft-point bullet leaving a 24" barrel @ 2204 fpe and yielding 3236 fpe for thin-skinned game worked well on lions and other light African game. It works well all over the North American Continent for most game and since its revival in 2001 (Teddy Roosevelt's 100th anniversary of using the rifle on the "Dark Continent". The cartridge's power approaches that of the 450 Marlin.

Not bad, do you think?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Is the design of the rifle compatible with today's machining and assembly methods?
Were there many parts on the original rifle that were hand fitted?
Many of the older rifles are indeed wonderful , but might be too expensive to produce today , no matter how useful the cartridge is.
Also I think firearms can be "faddish" and right now the trend or fad is for plastic.

Just asking as I too , miss seeing wood stocked and blued steel firearms being sold and bought.
Andy

 

[ageingstudent]

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have asked, Would it be worth having another .35 Remington Self Loader? This, in essence, was the original role of the cartridge. Granted the bullet was heavy (180-grains) and the .35 Remington used a 200-grain soft-point bullet. I was attempting to view this from a practical aspect.

If you recall, with limited success, Winchester reintroduced Teddy Roosevelt's "Lion Medicine" (the Lever Action .405 Winchester). Yes, it was marketing, but the old .4115" 300-grain soft-point bullet leaving a 24" barrel @ 2204 fpe and yielding 3236 fpe for thin-skinned game worked well on lions and other light African game. It works well all over the North American Continent for most game and since its revival in 2001 (Teddy Roosevelt's 100th anniversary of using the rifle on the "Dark Continent". The cartridge's power approaches that of the 450 Marlin.

Not bad, do you think?

If it was a .357mag WSL with cheap standard brass it would probably have a chance. It's a very simple and reliable design. The 1907 Winchester is an extreeeemly fun rifle to shoot. At it's core what it really is is a .357 semi-auto carbine. It's a little heavy because of the huge blowback bolt assembly, but the recoil is very manageable. I think the WSLs are the victims of the divorce between Winchester and John Browning. Browning's Remingtion model 8 with it's bottleneck cartridge was a step ahead and the cartridge fit the times ahead of the WSL.

I don't understand why the ballistics of the cartridge itself are poo-pood other than perhaps Winchester starting with the .32 and 35 (basically a .38 special ballistic equivalent) may have soured some folks who bought them wanting a deer rifle. With the right projectile (like any rifle) I think it would make an outstanding brush gun for blacktails.

I make my own brass and cast my own bullets for the .351 and I can shoot it for about 10 cents a round.

There was a guy practicing for competition out at DRRC a few weeks back and he came down to my lane to see what I was shooting. I loaded it up for him and after he shot it once I stepped away and just left the box there. He just kept loading and shooting and saying, "I never heard of these this is bad-arse!" lol. Yes they are really fun. I like my AR and my M1 carbine but my 1907 is just more fun to shoot and reload. It's got more whallop than a .30 carbine.

To be a popular shooter they would need a rimless .357 case/caliber, better sights, better trigger, and a bit less weight. I shoot a ~165gr fp out of mine that will hold 1 MOA all day long at 100 yards if I really bear down. If it had peeps like an M1 carbine it would be much easier to make precise shots.

My step dad has a .401 and it's fun too just a little bigger.

 

[ageingstudent]

Close. I've often thought a rimless .357 mag in an appropriately upscaled M1 Carbine would be the ticket.
Reintroducing it in the original .352 bore would be good for the current owners but I dont think it would help the appeal to new owners, especially reloaders. .357 bore size for bullet availability and maybe a semi rimmed case could allow function in revolvers AND box magazine fed semi-autos.

Yes. Or even moon clips. My .351 cases will chamber in my .357 revolvers but the bullet is too small to be accurate. It would be a very handy carbine/revolver combo for wandering around the woods.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yes. Or even moon clips. My .351 cases will chamber in my .357 revolvers but the bullet is too small to be accurate. It would be a very handy carbine/revolver combo for wandering around the woods.

lol, where there's a will, there's a way.
Check out this guy.. there's a few guys over there that have made oddballs like .25acp rifles and stuff.

My Ruger "Single Eight" in ".25ACP+" vs "Handloader" .250 Magnum Auto.

 

[Argonaut]

You are duplicating the 35 Remington with the 351, almost exactly. A great close hunting caliber that has a following but hardly a huge market success. I have my dad's old 30 Remington (M14) . It was originally a 35 but my grandfather sent it to the factory and had it rebarreled to a 30. He thought it was a more versatile caliber. It is off course simply a rimless 30-30. At one time ammo was unavailable for it but like many other things these days, you can buy it again. The rifle is a work of art, incredible fit and finish.

 

[ageingstudent]

With a 10 round mag it's formidable...



If it fired the same bullet as this I might sell the rest of my guns.



(Not really)

 

[KKG]

I doubt this will ever happen. I believe there is a great deal of Hand fitting done to these Rifles, as was very common in the day. Today, if "it" can't be CNC machined then it isn't going to happen. I know that is what happened to many models of Smith and Wessons. Smith and Wesson has basically stopped hiring Gunsmiths to work on their products. The only Exception is the Performance Center which is supposedly also the Repair Department.

 

[JRuby]

I have shot both the 401 and the 351 I was not impressed with the winchester rifles or the cartridges. When my grandfather passed in 1980 we inherited a couple of those rifles. Never did like the plunger sticking out the front of the stock. They were heavy rifles for the cartridges they shot. My brothers received the rifles and they are gone to history. I would much prefer s semi auto 358 winchester. Still.have an old box of Peters 401 loaded cartridges.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Ah, the 358 Win. What a good cartridge and a wonder that it is essentially forgotten about.. not in the same class when it comes to not catching on as the .350 Remington Magnum.. boy, I'd love one of those in a model 600 Mohawk

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I would like to have one, but I want a patina on mine!

 

[Ownerus]

Isn't bullet availability derived from demand? A Ruger Mini-14 might be a better platform.....

Availability? Usally not much demand for something not available. Survivability? Yes. If and when it's available, it would need demand to stay that way.
Dont know about the Mini-14, though similar, being a better platform than an upsized M1 Carbine (other than economically, being already in production). The Mini is a large rifle made small. I'm suggesting a small rifle made a little bigger. The Mini is kinda big and boney compared to the carbine. I think the carbine could be re-designed a little larger but not end up as big as the Mini-14. Would it make economic sense? Probably not. I want it anyway
And why would a .357 mag type cartridge be "less efficient" in a .30 Carbine upsized rifle? It's pretty popular in small lever guns.