ID in active shooter situation

[phydeaux]

Recent terrorist attacks of soft targets in the US and EU indicate a potential increase in these kinds of attacks in the future. In the US, it is not unlikely that one or more citizens with a gun might be on the scene and seek to take down the shooters or disrupt the attack.

Any thoughts on how one might identify oneself to law enforcement (i.e., second responders) in such a situation? Being an old fat white guy should be an unambiguous clue, but is there anything one could use to identify oneself as either "not the active shooter/terrorist" or one of the good guys?

If one had a go bag or man purse on you or in the car, it would be possible to carry something small and light weight. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. A high visibility mesh vest like those worn by joggers and road construction/utility workers
2. A hat of some type that may be high viz and/or marked in a way to distinguish one from a terrorist (e.g., NRA, a gun mfg logo, municipality, etc.)
3. An ID hung around the neck or on an armband -- the nature of the ID doesn't really matter (perhaps one's CHL), what's important is that shooters/terrorists don't display IDs

It seems that the goal here is not to authenticate as law enforcement, but to strongly signal "not a terrorist" causing LEO to do something other than shoot you right off the bat.

Thoughts?

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[v0lcom13sn0w]

im not a lawyer.

if it were me, i would say WHEN they arrest me: "heres my ID and chl. my gun is at this location(wherever it is, it better be unloaded. for the safety of myself and others WHEN the officer goes to clear it) i will not answer any questions without my attorney present." hopefully there is witnesses or security cameras present. be prepared for a long couple of days, weeks, months, years....?

 

[Mark W.]

Should you be the one to stop the active shooter. By the time the Police get there I would make sure that your firearm is out of your hand and your not the only one standing up. Last thing you want to be is in a shooting stance looking around the room.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Id fire up the video or voice recorder on my phone when the situation started (if possible)
Wouldnt be a bad idea to EDC one if those $10 voice recorders that slip in your pocket.

At the start of an active shooter situation
I would announce myself to others as law enforcement and to get behind me (or get out) or lay down on the ground to stay safe if no exit was possible.

I doubt anyone will hear a damn thing with panic, screams and gunfire, but those immediatly around you that may be close enough to you may try to disarm you either by mistake OR out of panic/survival
(as we see in swim rescue), I think its important for at least them to be told you were a good guy and an authority figure. People respond well to that. Announce yourself as law enforcement.

After all is said and done, They can easily tell if YOU were the shooter by witness/camera accounts and GSR (if you didnt fire a shot) as well as projectile placement/triangulation in court.

I wouldnt leave my side arm unless I made contact and exchanged fire and leos were right there.. if I got out and its concealed Id, announce that when being detained for questioning IF asked or about to be searched.. You know, behind the guys at the front of the line with itchy trigger fingers that are surrounding the building.


If I exchaged gunfire and prevailed then yes, Id leave my sidearm OR reholster it and lay flat on the ground if I didnt have enough time to walk outside before law enforcement came because they'll shoot the first person they see with a firearm as they pull up.

If by chance I was the one personally responsible for taking down the shooter and leos were on scene, Id lay flat on my belly and wait. Dont care how long, Im not going to get shot by cops, they'll come inside eventually and as Im laying down I may be able to get the ear of someone passing by and tell them what had happened without getting shot.. Maybe.

But to answer the OP, I wouldnt walk around or try to get their (leos) attention in any way unless it was a safe situation. Im a big guy, if I yell at a jumpy leo..he or she may draw and fire. Im not faster than a bullet.. So all in all, Id just wait it out. May waste your entire night, but playing dead is better than being dead.

 

[phydeaux]

Great ideas. What about during the attack when LEOs first come on the scene? How would one go about reducing the chance of being shot as a bad guy as you actively engage bad guys?

 

[etrain16]

That's a really hard call, as there are such a wide variety of circumstances that could happen. For me, I won't be actively engaging any active shooters unless my life, or the life of my family is in immediate danger and I have no option for escape/cover. I know some may want to go after/pursue them, I don't see myself doing that. My training is for self defense, not stopping an active shooter.

From what I've been taught, if LEO's show up on site, it's best to have the gun out of your hands - either holstered or on the ground. If the threat is over (bad guy is down and not getting back up), then I would holster the minute I knew LEO's were about to enter. If I'm covering a bad guy who is still a threat, I would loudly announce myself as an armed citizen, then would immediately and completely comply with every command they give me - knowing I would very quickly be put on the ground and cuffed while they start to sort things out. I can explain who I am and what I was doing after things calm down a few notches. There is at least one (likely more) YT video where a guy is covering an armed robber with his CC gun when the cops show up - he identifies himself and they ask him to holster his weapon. It doesn't escalate any further than that. Basically, when LE shows up, do one thing, comply, immediately, without hesitation.

I think that the possibility that you would be actively engaged with a bad guy, in a gun fight, when LE shows up is a long shot, but since they likely can't tell you apart, if you even catch a glimpse of the LE's, it would be in your best interest to drop the gun, and yourself, to the ground. YMMV.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

do the james yaeger and drop your gun lol.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

More gear on your belt?


Seriously, though, anything that would stand out in the heat of a firefight you probably wouldn't have time to put on and couldn't just wear it all the time.

 

[Certaindeaf]

At least his shield is professional grade..

 

[oli700]

I was just thinking this ......when I heard the shooters in the Paris concert got to shoot for 10 minutes without being confronted.
I thought there is no way in hell that they would shoot for 10 minutes here without getting shot back at.......then I thought those good guys are going to get shot in the back as soon as the police show .......that's if those cops can actually shoot their intended target because lately it seems some cops aren't into marksmanship

 

[phydeaux]

I was just thinking this ......when I heard the shooters in the Paris concert got to shoot for 10 minutes without being confronted.
I thought there is no way in hell that they would shoot for 10 minutes here without getting shot back at.......then I thought those good guys are going to get shot in the back as soon as the police show .......that's if those cops can actually shoot their intended target because lately it seems some cops aren't into marksmanship

Yes! Think the Westgate mall attack in Nairobi, the Mumbai terror attack in 2008, the recent Paris attacks. These were mostly extended attacks with little or no LEO response. And when the LEOs show up, one is likely to be looking for (and responding to) threats rather than looking for LEOs.

In that situation, how does one raise the question in a responding LEOs mind that, "Hey, this may not be a bad guy."

 

[mjbskwim]

YEAH lets give the muslims ideas on how to look like the good guy in this scenario!

 

[Hawaiian]

When LEO are responding to an active shooter situation, you do not want to have a gun in your hand or anywhere near you. The LEO may well shoot you first and ask questions later. This would also be a bad time to be an open carrier. If the bad guys did not shoot you first, the responding LEO probably would.

If wearing some goofy badge or shirt would prevent someone from being shot by LEO, all the bad guys would start wearing them.

 

[Ralph Brickley]

I'm really wondering if a lot of these responses are simply 'talk' on not based on 'talking to LEO' or real training?

I've spoke with several LEO who are thankful for armed citizens and there have been multiple events where active situations have had both citizen and LEO with drawn guns. I recently saw a recent video of a (gasp) black man stop a knife attack with his gun and kept the gun trained on the perp as the cops pulled up. Only when the cops approached with hands on the perp did the LEO instruct the citizen to holster his weapon. He didn't get shot up as the cops arrived.

I'm certainly not blaming the edginess with recent LEO stupidity but I think we are letting the few idiots cloud the reality. MOST LEO are very level headed and have common sense...

 

[mjbskwim]

I'm really wondering if a lot of these responses are simply 'talk' on not based on 'talking to LEO' or real training?

I've spoke with several LEO who are thankful for armed citizens and there have been multiple events where active situations have had both citizen and LEO with drawn guns. I recently saw a recent video of a (gasp) black man stop a knife attack with his gun and kept the gun trained on the perp as the cops pulled up. Only when the cops approached with hands on the perp did the LEO instruct the citizen to holster his weapon. He didn't get shot up as the cops arrived.

I'm certainly not blaming the edginess with recent LEO stupidity but I think we are letting the few idiots cloud the reality. MOST LEO are very level headed and have common sense...

Was that in the UK and were those Bobbies?
Hey,just askin

 

[Ralph Brickley]

Was that in the UK and were those Bobbies?
Hey,just askin

No it was in America. A man with a knife tried to rob a convenient store. CHL holder in the store drew on the perp, put him on the ground, told a witness to call the police and kept his weapon trained on the perp until LE arrived on scene.

 

[Hawaiian]

Here is a link to the Washington County Sheriff's office October Newsletter that discusses being a CHL holder in an active shooter situation. Note our Sheriff is pro CHL.

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs131/1114870388019/archive/1122328608738.html

 

[Ralph Brickley]

Here is a link to the Washington County Sheriff's office October Newsletter that discusses being a CHL holder in an active shooter situation. Note our Sheriff is pro CHL.

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs131/1114870388019/archive/1122328608738.html

Great find.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Is it OK to just leave a calling card with your email address on it?

 

[etrain16]

Was that in the UK and were those Bobbies?
Hey,just askin

I think this is the incident he was referring to. You can see the police response when they pull up. They didn't go after the CHL holder, just directed him to holster his weapon when they were ready: