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The fact is that other Countries do have Standards and many of them are Very strict. The USA doesn't even have a "Proof House" and leaves those Standards up to the Industry. Sometimes this is good and sometimes it isn't. Frankly, in my opinion, there needs to be more control over the (re)manufacturing of Ammunition in this Country. I've seen what I consider Way too many things like this happening. Some time ago I saw a Freedom Arms revolver with the entire top of the Cylinder and Frame blown off.:eek::mad::eek: And that is just one Heck of a Strong revolver. ALL of this is the result of poor quality control within the Industry.
Just because a Bad Thing happens, it doesn't automatically mean that we need a New Law. Laws rarely seem to correct the problem (real or imagined) that they were supposed to address, and often come with unintended consequences.
 
Just because a Bad Thing happens, it doesn't automatically mean that we need a New Law. Laws rarely seem to correct the problem (real or imagined) that they were supposed to address, and often come with unintended consequences.
The problem, as I see it, seems to be that Issues of poor quality control within the Reloaded Ammo Industry are getting out of hand. I do believe there is a problem.
 
The problem, as I see it, seems to be that Issues of poor quality control within the Reloaded Ammo Industry are getting out of hand. I do believe there is a problem.
I'm fine with that. I'm not convinced that whatever regulation our legislators might eventually pass would be effective or beneficial. Or not overall worse than none.
 
I use small rifle primers no problems for my pistols and they get whacked good and hard by my pistols.. leaving normal firing pin indentations much deeper than that shown in your photo.
The "cause" of bad primers? probably contamination and or improper storage
Every pistol and revolver i have will fire off the small rifle primers with out problems BUT they will not fire off the military "AR15" type primers. CCI41? i am not sure of the numbers.
 
View attachment 398305

They're still in business. Don't know if they export to yurp or not.

The CIP regulations do not cover reloaded ammunition, unless that ammunition has been submitted to, and passed the CIP specifications. Add to that the cost of providing a 20,000 round test lot at the maker's expense, and I'm fairly certain that we are never going to see that brand over here.

tac
 
"ALL US-made ammunition coming into Europe has to be subjected, initially, to the proof laws and tests, which is why it costs a deal more here than it does where you live."

Yes, I see. Looks like what we're getting at is that the U.S. and Europe both have regulation but the regulation in Europe is far more. Personally I don't see that as a good thing. Maybe it's just an American way of looking at things but I don't want to pay through the nose for ammo and components like you all do in Europe. Personally I think that being licensed and insured should cover it. Expensive insurance and being legally liable should make them careful, you would think. I guess I'm just not in favor of excessive regulation that makes things prohibitively expensive and restricts what I can buy and when.

I've actually heard of very few guns blown up and people hurt using commercial reloads. I've personally seen none. What I have seen are malfunctions and poor quality. I've heard of a couple of damaged guns that the commercial reloader was quick to replace when contacted. On the other hand I've heard of many damaged and blown up guns by people and their own reloads. Maybe we should have regulations that ban reloading altogether, or a mandatory training class and license to "roll your own"? :) That would help keep us safe.

EDIT: Sorry, Tac, reading what I wrote sounds more contentious than I intended. I do appreciate the conversation and information about how it's done there as opposed to here. No offense intended at all.

No offense taken.

I bleeve that you are missing a HUGE elephant here - in the CIP nations these specifications are not a bunch of 'do it if you feel like its', they are LAW, just like federal/state law, and written into LAW as Acts of Parliament or whatever governing administration exists in that particular country. Here in the yUK, gun and ammunition proof is all part of the 1834 Proof Acts of Parliament. As in 'don't kill someone of you'll go to jail' - selling a live-shooting gun that is not proofed or 'out of proof' is a very serious offence, which is why ALL guns here that are not made in a CIP nation, like the USA, are proofed by law before they can be sold.

tac
 
I think they should pass a law requiring people have a brain cell large enough
The CIP regulations do not cover reloaded ammunition, unless that ammunition has been submitted to, and passed the CIP specifications. Add to that the cost of providing a 20,000 round test lot at the maker's expense, and I'm fairly certain that we are never going to see that brand over here.

tac
Interesting. Does the UK make any commercial ammunition?
 
You mean apart from Eley-Kynoch [1/2 billion rounds of .22. mostly used in world .22 rifle comps]?

ammunition - ELEY .22LR Ammunition

ELEY only manufactures .22LR ammunition and has been the benchmark of quality and consistency since 1828. ELEY produces the world's most accurate .22LR ammunition that is trusted by world-class medal winning shooters. This takes dedication and an obsession for perfection.

In 1979, ELEY developed the world's first and only fully automated dry priming system. Nearly 40 years later, ELEY Prime remains the most consistent method to prime, increasing the accuracy of each and every round. With the addition of liquid activators at the end of the priming process, ELEY Prime serves as the industry's safest way of priming.

ELEY ammunition has been used to win more Olympic medals than all other .22LR manufacturers combined, including 4 out of 6 Olympic gold medals in 2016. ELEY is accuracy defined.

BTW, during the American Civil War ELEY was a major supplier of ammunition to the Confederacy. The first .22LR rimfire cartridges were produced in 1860, but current rimfire domination began in earnest in 1951 with the introduction of the first generation of ELEY tenex.

Then there is Kynoch - who specialise in the African and other double rifle calibres -

240-H%26H-flanged.gif
.240 H&H Flanged

425WestleyRichards.gif
.425 Westley Richards

6-5MannlicherSchoenauer.gif
6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer

450NE.gif
.450 Nitro Express

9-5MannlicherSchoenauer.gif
9.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer

450NitroforBlack.gif
.450 Nitro for Black

300HHFlanged.gif
.300 H&H Flanged

475No2NE.gif
.450 No.2 Nitro Express

300HHBeltedMagnum.gif
.300 H&H Belted Magnum

450Rigby.gif
.450 Rigby

...more to come.......


tac
 
303British.gif
.303 British

500-450.gif
.500/450 Nitro Express


310-Cadet.gif
.310 Cadet

577-450MH.gif
.577/450 Martini Henry


318RimlessNE.gif
.318 Rimless

500-465NE.gif
.500/465 Nitro Express


333JeffryFlanged.gif
.333 Jeffery Flanged

458-Win-Mag.gif
.458 Winchester Magnum


333Rimless.gif
.333 Rimless Nitro Express

458Lott.gif
.458 Lott


35Winchester.gif
.35 Winchester

470Capstick.gif
.470 Capstick


350Rigby.gif
.350 Rigby

470-NE.gif
.470 Nitro Express


400-350.gif
.400/350 Nitro Express & .350 Rigby No.2

475NE.gif
.475 Nitro Express


400-360-Purdey.gif
.400/360 Purdey

475No2NE.gif
.475 No.2 Nitro Express

 
You mean apart from Eley-Kynoch [1/2 billion rounds of .22. mostly used in world .22 rifle comps]?

ammunition - ELEY .22LR Ammunition

ELEY only manufactures .22LR ammunition and has been the benchmark of quality and consistency since 1828. ELEY produces the world's most accurate .22LR ammunition that is trusted by world-class medal winning shooters. This takes dedication and an obsession for perfection.

In 1979, ELEY developed the world's first and only fully automated dry priming system. Nearly 40 years later, ELEY Prime remains the most consistent method to prime, increasing the accuracy of each and every round. With the addition of liquid activators at the end of the priming process, ELEY Prime serves as the industry's safest way of priming.

ELEY ammunition has been used to win more Olympic medals than all other .22LR manufacturers combined, including 4 out of 6 Olympic gold medals in 2016. ELEY is accuracy defined.

BTW, during the American Civil War ELEY was a major supplier of ammunition to the Confederacy. The first .22LR rimfire cartridges were produced in 1860, but current rimfire domination began in earnest in 1951 with the introduction of the first generation of ELEY tenex.

Then there is Kynoch - who specialise in the African and other double rifle calibres -

View attachment 398439

.240 H&H Flanged
View attachment 398440
.425 Westley Richards
View attachment 398441
6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer
View attachment 398442
.450 Nitro Express
View attachment 398443
9.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer
View attachment 398444
.450 Nitro for Black
View attachment 398445
.300 H&H Flanged
View attachment 398446
.450 No.2 Nitro Express
View attachment 398447
.300 H&H Belted Magnum
View attachment 398448
.450 Rigby
...more to come.......

tac
So in other words, no. lol
 
No offense taken.

I bleeve that you are missing a HUGE elephant here - in the CIP nations these specifications are not a bunch of 'do it if you feel like its', they are LAW, just like federal/state law, and written into LAW as Acts of Parliament or whatever governing administration exists in that particular country. Here in the yUK, gun and ammunition proof is all part of the 1834 Proof Acts of Parliament. As in 'don't kill someone of you'll go to jail' - selling a live-shooting gun that is not proofed or 'out of proof' is a very serious offence, which is why ALL guns here that are not made in a CIP nation, like the USA, are proofed by law before they can be sold.

tac

No I don't think I was missing that necessarily. I understand that it's a longstanding strict system to ensure quality and safety. I certainly didn't mean to knock British arms or ammunition. I'm something of an amateur cartridge collector and I have many specimens of cool old British rounds going back well over a century.

I was just saying that given the choice I'd far rather live under the regulations that we have than the regulations that you have.

Statistically the danger from commercial reloads, which are not allowed in CIP nations, is far less than the danger from personal reloads which apparently are allowed. I also assume that in Europe one must have some means in order to own firearms and therefore reload, presumably meaning more mature reloaders and generally better quality handloads. Here any old Joe can afford to reload, and sometimes that's scary.

Again no offense, but I'd still rather have what we have here.
 
Considering that we have way more, virtually unlimited choices of quality new ammunition from reputable manufacturers, that do tightly follow SAAMI specifications....

I dont see a problem here, or with our American system.
 
I also assume that in Europe one must have some means in order to own firearms and therefore reload, presumably meaning more mature reloaders and generally better quality handloads. Here any old Joe can afford to reload, and sometimes that's scary.


Here, any old Joe who can justify it can own guns, and reload. 'Having some means' here in UK simply means that you have a real job, rather than relying on welfare. I know lots of people who have just one or two guns, but most of those I know have a handful for different things, and yes, we are just ordinary folks. There ARE a few folk in our club with what I would call excessive funds, just as there are in the USA - I'm sure that you know somebody who is way better off than you are, same as I do. Gun clubs here are a cross-section of society just as they are in the USA. Argonaut has mentioned how expensive sporting shooting is in Germany, and the figures are right - it costs about twice as much, often a lot more, to do the same thing there as it does here in the UK, due mainly to the property laws there that inhibit the use of your own land for game shooting. Here there is no such problem - if you own land, then you can shoot on it, and invite anybody else to shoot on it, too.

Here in UK I don't know any aristocrats, and have never been to an estate shoot in my life - not my style. In the USA you pay, even in real terms, a lot less for your guns than we do. And since the ordinary Joe here doesn't have Rigby, Holland & Holland, Churchill rifles and shotguns, about 30% of all the guns bought here are US-made, and we pay about 170% more than you do for the same gun.

tac
 
That's good to know, thank you. 170% isn't as bad as I would have thought. I apologize for my ignorance.

I would love to visit the U.K. someday. My only experience outside the U.S. was a couple weeks in Taiwan. As much as I love the U.S., I'd love to see the world. Maybe when the kids are grown if we have any money, energy, time, or life left...
 
Please don't say that you are iggerunt. Just say that you are now more aware how different things REALLY are over here. There are many websites that deal with the problems encountered by US citizens coming over here, especially to UK, to live and work. Part of the problem here is accommodating your mind to the scale of things. Flying in over England for the first time you might be excused for wondering where everybody is.

Yorkshire+Countryside.jpg
And then, all of a sudden, you are flying high over a town or city, and it all becomes clear -
jason_london_2107260i.jpg
Of course, this is only one small sample, but those 65,000,000 people all have to live somewhere.....

tac
 
Back in the day we used to buy a lot of this stuff.. commercial reloads.. saved a few bucks a box. This was back when most cops carried .357/.38 and there was a million tons a brass for them.. good stuff.

View attachment 398305

They're still in business. Don't know if they export to yurp or not.

I don't know if HSM still offers reloaded ammunition anymore. Like Black Hills, they started out remanufacturing ammo and then turned to making new. A friend showed me a box of HSM reloads probably 10 or 12 years ago. Recently I bought some new 223 that was HSM headstamped. It happens to be the most accurate ammo out of my AR pistol.

Back to the point of the thread, I've bought some reloads over the years, but not any for quite a while. I once got a bunch of 38 Special reloads that had been issued for practice to my brother in law when he still carried a 38. I have to say that was the sloppiest ammo I've encountered. The mixed brass didn't bug me, but the bullet seating depth seemed to have a very large tolerance. :oops: Every one of them went bang, some softly and some loudly!

I prefer to make most of my ammo, but often buy new stuff to shoot and gather cases.
 
I wonder if it is new now.
I know they make some very high-end ammo these days.

so tonight I stopped by Sportsmans to buy some new and checked... yes, they still sell this and they were reloads clearly marked on the box. A quick price comparison was, the same as new.
 
I have been reloading for 45 years. In the beginning I used to reload brass until it fractured/cracked/fatigued like the photo. This was due to ignorance. As time went by I learned an easier pull on the resizing die is a clue to check the case. On a progressive press the feedback is much more subtle. If you are buying commercial they buy a lot of range brass from unknown sources and their machinery doesn't have that human touch. Find a quality manufacturer but this may still rarely occur. Learn to reload your own. I still find it quite satisfying.
 
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