I will never buy reloads again

[Koda]

Probably the law of natural selection. Ol' Doofy wouldn't be in business long if they were too weak to function and or blowing up guns too hot.

And thus the reason for this thread...

 

[CLT65]

Some years back I picked up a thousand rounds of bulk 9mm at a gun show for a friend. He wanted me to load some for him but I said no way, found a "good deal" at a show instead.

This ammo was loaded and labeled by a legitimate licensed company ( Miwall if I remember correctly). What got me was that I found that a bunch of the primers were slightly proud. I told him to contact the company and complain but I don't think he did.

A lot of unlicensed shade tree ammo gets sold at gun shows to unsuspecting buyers, but I don't think it's terribly hard to get licensed and insured to commercially make and sell reloads. Most of them are fine, I'm sure, but I've seen enough trouble with commercial reloads over the years that I just won't buy them.

That said, given the choice between the freedom to risk buying questionable ammo on occasion, and Europe's strict paternalistic controls over everything related to firearms and ammunition; I'll take what we have, thank you.

 

[KKG]

Well that's what they say about ignorance of the law.. that doesn't change the fact of the matter.
When and if they are sold here it is invariably to pull down for components and the parties both know and state this.

Can you supply the current Law that contains this requirement?

 

[Certaindeaf]

And thus the reason for this thread...

Indeed.
You can also buy heroin on the street corner but it's probably not advisable.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Can you supply the current Law that contains this requirement?

No, I did put in a call here in this thread for someone that can and probably will. Might take more than an hour for him to respond though.

 

[tac]

If Mr Doofus makes your reloads, and one of them blows up your gun, the hand holding it and damages others around you, then you are on your own.

If this happens with the product of an otherwise reputable ammunition manufacturer then you can sue them till it squeaks.

Your choice.

Here, there is NO choice. Making and selling ammunition without a licence entitles you to at least five years making license plates.

GIVING it to your pals is one thing - SELLING it is quite another.

tac

 

[KKG]

No, I did put in a call here in this thread for someone that can and probably will. Might take more than an hour for him to respond though.

At present and in my condition, I have plenty of time. I would really like to know.

 

[CLT65]

If Mr Doofus makes your reloads, and one of them blows up your gun, the hand holding it and damages others around you, then you are on your own.

If this happens with the product of an otherwise reputable ammunition manufacturer then you can sue them till it squeaks.

Your choice.

Here, there is NO choice. Making and selling ammunition without a licence entitles you to at least five years making license plates.

GIVING it to your pals is one thing - SELLING it is quite another.

tac

I don't think there's that much difference. In order to sell reloads here you have to be licensed and insured also, though it sounds like the requirements are less onerous. If the ammo you loaded and sold blows up someone's gun, you are definitely liable (hence the insurance).

If Doofus sells his baggies of garage reloads at a gun show he's breaking the law. I'm sure it happens, I've seen it myself. How do you stop it, short of heavy-handed enforcement? Should I have called the cops when I saw Doofus sitting at his gun show table with what appeared to be reloads?

A couple years ago a friend brought me some ammo he was having trouble with. It was a big box of .223 "commercial reloads" he'd bought at a gun show. He shot some but about half wouldn't chamber. Looking at them closely they were the most gosh-aweful poor reloads I'd seen in a long time, clearly made by someone who had no idea what they were doing, not likely licensed or insured. He got ripped off. We pulled them all down for components.

 

[tac]

...though it sounds like the requirements are less onerous.

That's my whole point. You don't actually have ANY legal requirements. SAAMI has no legal basis - their documentation of 'standards' is just a list of best practice and none of it has any standing in law to protect you.

ALL US-made ammunition coming into Europe has to be subjected, initially, to the proof laws and tests, which is why it costs a deal more here than it does where you live.

tac

 

[Koda]

Id like to learn more about this "licensed and insured" part... Is that like any LLC company, or is it something specific to manufacturing new ammunition only?

What Ive always thought was a legit company can sell all the reloads they can crank out, without any specific license. A reload, by its very nature, is uncontrolled. Its like buying a used car and expecting a factory warranty.

 

[Lilhigbee]

From BATF website;


Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit.

No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) and 923(a); 27 CFR 478.41]


Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

 

[Koda]

Good...

Part 2: is he required by law to follow SAAMI specifications?

 

[Alexx1401]

just when I thought I had extinguished my supply, I found a box of 45 reloads. So I threw it in my range bag... a closer look and I find this.

View attachment 397723

Damn good thing you saw it now!!!

 

[tac]

Good...

Part 2: is he required by law to follow SAAMI specifications?

No, SAAMI specifications are 'best practice recommendations; but are not legally-binding requirements imposed on ammunition manufacturers.

tac

 

[Lilhigbee]

From SAAMI; Note the word "VOLUNTARY".


American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

Also note that they only list 28,000PSI for .45-70. That would leave the Buffalo Bore folks and everyone else that loads for lever-action and single-shot guns out.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

 

[Koda]

No, SAAMI specifications are 'best practice recommendations; but are not legally-binding requirements imposed on ammunition manufacturers.

tac

So basically this means that the batf license to manufacture ammo, reloads, is just a piece of paper. A formality at best.

 

[tac]

Yup.

Voluntary compliance with accepted standards. Not compulsory compliance with legally-binding regulations.

That's why all your US-made ammunition makers have to provide factory samples for checking compliance with the CIP test specs. Every single box of US-made ammunition sold over here in Europe and in the other non-European CIP signature nations has a CIP stamp on it to SHOW complicance.

tac

 

[Koda]

From SAAMI; Note the word "VOLUNTARY".


American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers

Also note that they only list 28,000PSI for .45-70. That would leave the Buffalo Bore folks and everyone else that loads for lever-action and single-shot guns out.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

Boutique ammo manufacturers like BB have been pushing the limits on even new ammo for years and have faced critisim.
Years ago I think it was Underwood that had a hot 10mm that even they said not to use in an unsupported barrel... Not anymore they took that load down. ANY 10mm made to SAAMI spec is safe in an unsupported barrel...

I know Buffalo Bore was accused of the same, Ill see if I can find the link when I get home.

Yes, SAAMI is voluntary.

 

[KKG]

So basically this means that the batf license to manufacture ammo, reloads, is just a piece of paper. A formality at best.

Yes, but a required one. I once had one of those and I got a number of Discounts(on components) above and beyond those I got with a regular FFL. I bought strictly for myself but it was worth the fee at the time. The Insurance is what would have killed the business and so I kept the License for a few years and then let it go.

 

[KKG]

ANY 10mm made to SAAMI spec is safe in an unsupported barrel...

But then it must be remembered that the 10mm is a very, very New cartridge compared to the .45ACP or 9mm Luger or .38 S&W Special or even the .45 Colt. And that means the 10mm SAMMI specs are also very New.