I want a rifle

[nwwoodsman]

Standard SKS weights in at a little over 8 pounds and can do everything you're asking for or you can go a little lighter and get a paratrooper model. Plus you can keep all the spare parts you'll need on hand for when the SHTF

 

[simon99]

That was P.O Ackley's playground. Small and fast. He even went so far as to make a 22 from a 50 BMG round.
He called it the ergersplittenloudenboomer. 6000+fps.
He did a lot with the 17 as well.
In VN the 5.56 barely met the mark. The M14 was by far the better weapon. They found that out in the Middle East also.
In urban settings the 5.56 sufficed, but in open terrain the M14 was 10X the weapon.

During most operations in the ME, 5.56 can work just fine due to the distances our guys are facing. Most firefights are close up engagements, where the enemy is 200 yards out or closer in urban environments. Though snipers use a mix of 7.62 for the m40a3/5 and the Barretts chambered in 50BMG, you're starting to see more of the XM platform rifles show up chambered in 300 WinMag. This has pretty much put any rifle chambered in 338 Lapua out to pasture. I think the 300 will be the future chambering for any sniping platform in the years to come, even phasing out the 7.62.

 

[FortRock]

I think someone makes a nifty little .223 bolt gun that takes AR mags.. I'd probably go with 20 rounders.

Mossberg

 

[FortRock]

AR in 6.8 Ammo is available and it is easy to reload.

 

[Flopsweat]

James Yeager can be annoying, but this video on Rifles for Home Defense has a lot of good info, IMO:

Rifles for Home Defense - YouTube

No offense but it amazes me that this guy is supposed to be some kind of civilian rifle instructor but has apparently never heard of hollow point 5.56 ammo. He talks about different military and frangible ammo and tumbling and cannelures but never mentions civilian hunting and self defense rounds. He's just repeating cliché military stuff and throwing in some personal experience with certain hardware. Maybe his class is great, but this video is not much. Don't get me wrong - I'm just a basic rifle instructor - but he's not up on home defense ammo at all.

 

[simon99]

No offense but it amazes me that this guy is supposed to be some kind of civilian rifle instructor but has apparently never heard of hollow point 5.56 ammo. He talks about different military and frangible ammo and tumbling and cannelures but never mentions civilian hunting and self defense rounds. He's just repeating cliché military stuff and throwing in some personal experience with certain hardware. Maybe his class is great, but this video is not much. Don't get me wrong - I'm just a basic rifle instructor - but he's not up on home defense ammo at all.

I'm subbed to his channel and like about half of his videos...the other half, not so much. He's just too intense. Like every 3rd video he makes he pounds 6 Redbulls prior to filming? There have been some classic videos this summer though, one about a week ago is an ongoing theme with a guy named Jay ( I think) that features sniper techniques, supplies and weapons. On this one video in particular, I'm not sure if jay is high on drugs, hungover, or has some major PTSD "thousand yard stare" issues going on but its as funny as heck.

 

[Netspirit]

he's not up on home defense ammo at all.

What can we read on the subject, please? What rifle bullets are more effective against humans at short distances typical for home defense scenarios?

 

[Ironbar]

Some basic things requirements.

1. light weight like as in under 7 lbs
2. 10 round capacity minimum
3. short barrel as in under 20"
4. common and easy to find caliber
5. one shot stopping power

I think I have just the solution for you. It's called the ZF-1 from Zorg Industries.

Zorg Presents the ZF1

 

[Certaindeaf]

Mossberg

Yea, about five others suggested that also.
In post #22 he bought an MVP in .308.. and an AR.

 

[MikeE]

No offense but it amazes me that this guy is supposed to be some kind of civilian rifle instructor but has apparently never heard of hollow point 5.56 ammo. He talks about different military and frangible ammo and tumbling and cannelures but never mentions civilian hunting and self defense rounds. He's just repeating cliché military stuff and throwing in some personal experience with certain hardware. Maybe his class is great, but this video is not much. Don't get me wrong - I'm just a basic rifle instructor - but he's not up on home defense ammo at all.

No ofense taken. Many of us seek very basic information. It would be great to read your thoughts on more detail, if you have the time.

 

[Flopsweat]

No ofense taken. Many of us seek very basic information. It would be great to read your thoughts on more detail, if you have the time.

What can we read on the subject, please? What rifle bullets are more effective against humans at short distances typical for home defense scenarios?

You want me to talk? Careful what you wish for. My point is that you don't have to rely on ammo designed around the Hague convention - "designed to wound excessively" or whatever it was. One of the things that Hague did was to effectively constrain the signees (the U.S. being one of them) from using expanding projectiles on humans. Much of the 5.56 ammunition that our forces use has a cannelure - a series of indentations in a circle around the bullet where it seats in the case. This allows for a better crimp, which keeps the bullet from shifting in the case when it gets knocked around from, say firing the gun on full auto or chucking ammo containers around. It just so happens that some of the more common ammo will snap at the cannelure at impact and tumble and fragment, which is more likely to disable a bad guy than a little hole straight through him. This is not a deliberate part of the design, and is therefore not a violation of the agreement.


While all of this is great if you're in the military, it's totally unnecessary in the civilian world. You've probably seen handgun self defense ammo and rifle hunting rounds for small to medium game. Usually they have a hollow tip (hollow-point) which causes the bullet to expand on impact. This creates a much larger wound channel than round-nosed target ammunition would, and can be more effective and consistent than a tumbling bullet. It also slows the bullet dramatically, reducing the likelihood of over-penetration, which is a particular concern in an urban environment. Self-defense rifle ammo, in my mind, should do just what self-defense pistol ammo does: Expand inside the bad guy and incapacitate him as rapidly as possible without zipping out the other side and putting others at risk. It's a balance between penetration and expansion. Some folks will talk about barrier penetration, but I'm not personally concerned with that. Not being in LE or military I just don't see it as a likely scenario for me.


For home defense I like a relatively light, high velocity round with an aggressive hollow-point. Something in a 55 to 62 grain weight. I would avoid the 50 gr and lighter "varmint" rounds as they are designed for very small game and may not penetrate well. You want 12 to 18 inches of penetration with rapid expansion. Most major manufacturers make good home defense 223 ammunition now. Some of the better ones are made by Hornady and Speer, but Winchester and Federal are worth looking into as well. I chose the Hornady TAP with the rubber tip filling the HP. I forget exactly what the name is since I bought it quite a while ago. If you're out in the country, I would think that something in a 75 or 77 grain hollow-point would be suitable since you may be shooting outside. Also, your neighbors are further away, so you'll likely be less worried about over-penetration.


If you want to read more on the subject, some of it by folks far more knowledgeable than I, search AR15.com for "home defense ammunition" or something along those lines. A few years ago a couple of members did some very detailed testing of various HD and military rounds. I'm pretty sure the FBI did some 223 tests too, and they have specific standards for penetration and so forth. Here are some Youtube videos with gel tests:

Speer Gold Dot 64 gr HP
Speer LE Gold Dot 223 64gr GDSP Ballistics Gel Test (#24448) - YouTube


Hornady TAP 75 gr BTHP
Hornady 223 Remington 75gr BTHP TAP Ballistics Gel Test (HD) #80265 - YouTube

Hope that helps, Flops.


Black Hills 77 gr Open Tip Match
Black Hills MK 262 Mod1 77gr 5.56 OTM Ballistic Gel Test (HD) - YouTube

Federal 62 gr OTM
Federal 5.56 T556TNB1 62gr OTM Mod0 (SOST) Ballistics Gel Test (HD) - YouTube

 

[MikeE]

Thanks!

 

[erudne]

Yep on FA the barrel was nearly vertical by the 3rd shot.

That's my experience w/the 14 as well
Ruger Mini-30 is a good option, especially the newer models

 

[erudne]

Yep on FA the barrel was nearly vertical by the 3rd shot.

That's my experience w/the M 14 as well
Ruger Mini-30 is a good option, especially the newer models