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I like Bullpups

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by jordanvraptor, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. jordanvraptor

    jordanvraptor Oregon City, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why they are not more popular. Yes, lefties are bubblegummed on some designs like my HS-10B shotgun, but with all the emphasis on compactness for CQB I would have thought bullpups would be all the rage. I've always been a fan of the bullpup design even some that weren't done quite right like the Bushmaster pistol I used to have. It worked fine, was compact, but the sights were worse than a Sten gun with the canting pistol grip and all. The Steyr AUG was my favorite so when MSAR came out with their clone I was very happy when the prices began to be reasonable. I thought about going for broke and getting a PS90 cause I love Stargate and all but I couldn't see going to a less powerful yet more expensive caliber. I still may get one or at least an airsoft... :) First the H&K 416 was all the rage cause it was a piston M4 and made by Germans. So everyone started pulling piston designs out of the patent office archives. Now the SCAR and MagBush ACR are new kids on the block. I really don't get it. The stg-556 is a piston system proven for over 30 years, it has a scope, I can rail it if I want and its a full 20 inch barrel with the same length as an SBR'd M4. The manual of arms is a bit quirky. The only real life disadvantage I see is Pie'ing off a corner where normally I would switch hands on an M4. You can do it with the AUG but it looks ghetto so to speak. :eek: Oh, I've seen vids on youtube where they have bullpupped a Saiga 12. What do you guys think of various bullpup designs like the FS2000, Tavor, Bushy M17S, Chinese AK thingies...? Show your collection if you have any.
    bullpups001.jpg
     
  2. tallshipsgo

    tallshipsgo Springfield OR Well-Known Member

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    I never really thought about a bullpup until recently, they just never really appealed to me but then I looked at an FS2000. I WANT ONE! Great compact weapon that takes standard AR mags, is compact, light, is easily accessorized and did I mention compact? :) The plus for south paws is that it's a forward eject system so nothing gets thrown in your face. Very slick weapon.
     
  3. TNThomas

    TNThomas Seattle New Member

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    The one on bottom looks FUN!!
     
  4. MarkSBG

    MarkSBG Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I have always wonder something similar. Why are most home defense shotguns so long that the BG would see you coming 30 seconds before you cam around the corner?

    I have also always wondered why BP designs have (typically) really poor trigger pulls? Most people will say it is because of the push rod design. I still don't know why you can't stiffen that system up to get a good trigger pull. Every semiauto pistol I can think of has a trigger that goes around the mag, like the 1911 that has a great trigger pull. Any thoughts?

    I would love to have a BP shotgun or 223, but what I REALLY want is a 45 ACP BP rifle. Something like that would be a hoot!
     
  5. cbzdel

    cbzdel Tacoma, WA Member

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    never have liked those guns, they look to video gamish to me :bluelaugh:
     
  6. Outrider

    Outrider Oregon Active Member

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    I like the bullpup concept and I think the FS2000 got a lot of it right. There are some things that could be improved but on the whole it is pretty neat. Taking one through a carbine class was an interesting experience.

    The real problem that you run into with many bullpups is that most are not truly ambidextrous. The FAMAS, AUG, TAVOR all require a person make changes to the rifle's configuration in order to change where the spent casings are ejected. The reason this is an issue is when the shooter may have to switch sides in a dynamic situation. Getting a face full of brass because you have to shoot from your offside is generally considered suboptimal.

    With the tactical shooting crowd in the US, there is a myopic focus on what the US military and Law Enforcement uses, meaning the AR-15/M16/M4 style rifles. When a bullpup doesn't do something exactly like an AR-15 the detractors come out of the woodwork to tell you that the bullpup is lacking. People don't like bullpup rifles because their triggers aren't as crisp as the AR-15's. People don't like them if they don't accept a PMAG. People don't like them because the magazine release is different. People don't like them if they can't stick all of the same accessories on them that they overload their AR-15 rifles with. People don't like them if they don't have last round bolt hold open. People don't like them because of looks. People don't like them because they're mindlessly repeating a half-remembered lie of a story.

    The reasons people complain about the design are legion and usually have the common denominator that the people who hate them the most are individuals who have minimal (if any) time with them.
     
  7. ORBrit

    ORBrit Eugene Member

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    I love Bullpups.
    If there's any one gun I would own if I could get one, it would be the L85A2.

    It's not the best rifle out there, but years using it as my issue rifle make me very fond of it.
     
  8. Bajablast

    Bajablast Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    I have a Walther G22 Bullpup .22lr, and it is the most fun .22lr rifle I have ever shot. Sure, it costs 2.5x what a Ruger 10/22 costs, but it is an absolute blast to shoot. It is very accurate as well.

    Mine came with a Walther Red Dot scope, as the standard sights pretty much suck. The barrel is 20" long, and the whole rifle is only 28" long, so it is a nice compact package.

    If you ever see me at the Rainier Gun Club, just ask and I will let you try it out. I also go to Tri County once in awhile with a friend (since I don't have a membership there), so don't hesitate to ask if you see me there also. (I'll be the one with the bullpup and Ruger 22/45 having a blast)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I do not think I have a problem. I'm told that the first step to recovery is to admit your problem..... Screw them. I have NO problem.
     
  9. tallshipsgo

    tallshipsgo Springfield OR Well-Known Member

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    The A2's, as I understand it, were a vast improvement over the original issue rifle though. Plus it looks cool. :D
     
  10. ORBrit

    ORBrit Eugene Member

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    that's what I hear from my buddies. I had the A1 - it's been over 10 years since I was serving.
     
  11. PBinWA

    PBinWA Clark County Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    stormtrooper.jpg

    Of course, I still want one. :D
     
  12. ORBrit

    ORBrit Eugene Member

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    I thought the stormtrooper guns were made from Sterling L2A3 SMGs
     
  13. tallshipsgo

    tallshipsgo Springfield OR Well-Known Member

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    I believe that's correct. Makes sense too as they shot the films (at least in part as I recall) in England and it would have been a handy template to use for the movie guns.
     
  14. CharlesAFerg

    CharlesAFerg Beaverton Active Member

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    The newest IMI Tavor service rifles have a wonderful trigger pull. That issue has definitely been addressed, let me tell you. The trigger mechanism has been engineered with that issue in mind.

    tavor_idf_1.jpg
     
  15. clearconscience

    clearconscience Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I love them but I've always seen them being really expensive.
    I love the top one you have there. Very compact, light, and balanced!
     
  16. tionico

    tionico Thurston County Well-Known Member

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    I've seen these, never handled one, but am intrigued. It took a while to get past their "video game" appearance.... to even think I'd want one.

    As a complete Nu B with these (but fairly experienced in "normal" long guns) any advice on things to look for, things to avoid? What calibers do the various models use? I have also noticed many are rather high priced, compared to some other styles... but maybe this reflects some particular quality differences? Like I said, I am intrigued by them.... I doubt the military and LE would be going to them if they didn't work well.

    I do note that shell ejection can be an issue..... for some uses. Seems some direction that works for either-handed use would be best... never know when something might not get in one eye, forcing off-hand use.. or to shoot round a corner or other cover. Or, hand it off to a southpaw.. who'd rather not collect a few brass in his face.

    I'd like to persue this further, possibly even getting one. I'd want something with a respectable caliber... 5.56 at least... the lowly but solid .22 LR just doesn't seem practical for all-round use, and I've got machinery that distributes .22 lead rather well already.

    I suppose this sort of weapon would be high on the list of "banned weapons" should the wackjobs claiming to "represent" us gain the upper hand and pass their sweetheart legislation. Best to get one sooner rather than later.... they COULD succeed. I doubt anyone will manage to take away what we already own very soon.... but getting while the getting's yet good (and legal) mightn't be a bad plan.
     
  17. NoAim

    NoAim Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Personally, I do a ARs because they work very well for a lot of things. And they are a "standard" made in the USA with a ton of aftermarket support.

    Our military tends to not like then due to the very short accessory/rail area. A modern fighter needs a good sling, IR/laser designators, white light, NV amplifier and a few other things that need to be stapled on. Bullpups, to their very nature, generally do not have the available space to fit all this stuff, and if they do, they are just as long, or even longer as their non-bullpup counterparts (see the Tavor with M203 above).

    Additionally, it's been pretty difficult to free float a bullpup barrel. I think the Kel-Tec RFB is the only one that does it.

    Beyond that, I do like some of the concepts of a bullpup. I really like the way the AUG shoulders and seems to have no forward weight, helping it swing very fast. In contrast, I felt the FS2000 was very nose heavy, and build for people with giant hands.

    I have yet to play with a Kel-Tec RFB, but it looks neat. Hopefully if it's successful we'll see it in a .223 variant.

    And in reality, these .223s (AUG and F2000) vs. a 16" M4 variant, you're talking about 6" of OAL length difference for the same barrel lengths in shooting configuration.
     
  18. pencap

    pencap Oregon Member

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    I like bullpups too.

    In order, my fav is MSAR ->RFB ->FS2k

    IMG_1310.jpg
     
  19. jordanvraptor

    jordanvraptor Oregon City, Oregon Well-Known Member

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  20. Bruce

    Bruce Jefferson County, Wa Member

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    I think the problem with the US Military adopting a bullpup is the question, can you fight with it? Most bullpup designs do not lend well to bayonet fighting.
    I honestly think the M4 barrel length was decided because a bayonet would fit on a carbine. Not any muzzle velocity, trajectory, or range concerns.

    Bruce.