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I guess I have to say it again; everyone who is a law abiding adult, has the right to bear arms - everyone.

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I was disappointed tonight on my drive home from work, to hear a Florida self-described gun shop owner and "gun rights advocate" proclaim that only citizens of the USA have "Second Amendment rights" - in relation to the Florida shooting by a Saudi national.

NPR was going on about hunting licenses in Florida, foreign visitors, etc., being able to buy guns. They had at least one, possibly two different people make statements about gun rights. I was driving and of course can't play it back, but I did hear the one lady plain as day make the statement that only US citizens have "Second Amendment rights".

Sorry, but while it may be that the US is one of few (or maybe only) nation that recognizes that right, it is one of a number of inalienable 'natural rights' (or as some people put it, ' god given rights'). Be definition, natural rights are rights that everyone has, not just citizens.

It just amazes me that so many people do not understand these fundamental facts regarding our rights. :rolleyes:
 
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Attempts to limit the rights in the BoR to citizens are misguided -- these are supposed to be universal rights that exist outside of government and are not bestowed by government. When such universal rights are narrowed to only citizens, it diminishes them and makes it easier to argue they are government granted rights, rather than God given/natural/universal/fundamental -- whatever descriptor you want to use, once they become politician-given, they're squat.
 

Alexx1401

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I was disappointed tonight on my drive home from work, to hear a Florida self-described gun shop owner and "gun rights advocate" proclaim that only citizens of the USA have "Second Amendment rights" - in relation to the Florida shooting by a Saudi national.

NPR was going on about hunting licenses in Florida, foreign visitors, etc., being able to buy guns. They had at least one, possibly two different people make statements about gun rights. I was driving and of course can't play it back, but I did hear the one lady plain as day make the statement that only US citizens have "Second Amendment rights".

Sorry, but while it may be that the US is one of few (or maybe only) nation that recognizes that right, it is one of a number of inalienable 'natural rights' (or as some people put it, ' god given rights'). Be definition, natural rights are rights that everyone has, not just citizens.

It just amazes me that so many people do not understand these fundamental facts regarding our rights. :rolleyes:
Sadly this is why the people who want to take rights away have been so successful. Not just 2nd but several. Look how many people are all in on doing away with free speech. You hear many get on TV and say they want people who say things they do not like to be silenced by law. Then don't see anything "off" when they claim "their" right to free speech is not to be infringed, only the people who they don't agree with. Some of them are amazing to listen to and watch.
I heard it summed up best a while ago by the guy from Prager, He said people no longer yearn to be free, they yearn to be taken care of. Promise to take care of them and they will gladly throw any of their rights away.
 

nwslopoke

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I watched a video I can't share due to language and content, but it shows how bad off or blind some people can be. Their own arguments can't support their opinions. When people can read facts but are told they mean the opposite, I just throw my hands up and buy more ammo.

The problem is, these aren't otherwise stupid people. Ideology trumps all I guess. We have right to bear or not to bear arms. We have the right to defense. How we choose to do either is our individual business. What is so hard to grasp?

Why some Americans go to extreme lengths to counter those facts is beyond me. It could easily be explained if it were just young people but that is not the case.
 
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Wow, this one really came at me sideways. I started reading OP and immediately thought of course non-citizens shouldn't have guns without some process. As I read on, I could tell something was wrong. Started getting a little uncomfortable. Once I figured out what was bothering me it all made sense. I was wrong! This happened to me a couple of years ago, so I was able to recognize it more quickly the second time. :rolleyes: Of course constitutional rights apply to everyone. You wouldn't want a law that said non-citizens can't be public speakers, be required to house the National Guard when they're in town, be subject to warrantless searches, be denied due process, well you get where I'm going. When you're on U.S. soil you're a free man. Free woman, free whatever you like, but you're not a subject. It's one of the greatest things about us. Thanks Heretic.
 
OP
The Heretic
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Everybody is a 'free man', but many governments, including our own, do not completely recognize all that this means. Some governments don't recognize it at all. Even from the beginning we did not; we had sedition laws early on and newspaper publishers were put in prison for criticizing the government. Our own SCOTUS, which is supposed to be the protector of those rights, allows infringements for the most flimsy reasons (e.g., because it makes the job of LEOs easier).

There are a few rights where the US Constitution is explicit about them being only for citizens - such as the right to vote. But as you pointed out, when the 14th amendment talks about due process, it uses the terminology of "person", not citizen.
 
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Tough topic, although I agree that ‘human rights’ are not specific to a nation, I despise when I find (generally the left) tries to apply rights to everyone in this country, regardless of citizenship.

The rights of a citizen must inherently be greater than a non-citizen otherwise what would be the point of becoming a citizen. What would be the benefit?

We already see non citizens being encouraged to vote in our elections in certain parts of the country, we already see non citizens collecting welfare, comp’d housing, etc,

So yes, although I like to think of ‘God given rights,’ at the same time, the rights we have in this country were written with the blood of forefathers who demanded those rights be acknowledged. Frankly, I don’t care about foreign nationals having the same rights in this country as Americans, they can apply for citizenship if it is that important to them or they can endeavor to make their homeland as awesome as this country.
 
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Everybody is a 'free man', but many governments, including our own, do not completely recognize all that this means. Some governments don't recognize it at all. Even from the beginning we did not; we had sedition laws early on and newspaper publishers were put in prison for criticizing the government. Our own SCOTUS, which is supposed to be the protector of those rights, allows infringements for the most flimsy reasons (e.g., because it makes the job of LEOs easier).

There are a few rights where the US Constitution is explicit about them being only for citizens - such as the right to vote. But as you pointed out, when the 14th amendment talks about due process, it uses the terminology of "person", not citizen.
Tough topic, although I agree that ‘human rights’ are not specific to a nation, I despise when I find (generally the left) tries to apply rights to everyone in this country, regardless of citizenship.

The rights of a citizen must inherently be greater than a non-citizen otherwise what would be the point of becoming a citizen. What would be the benefit?

We already see non citizens being encouraged to vote in our elections in certain parts of the country, we already see non citizens collecting welfare, comp’d housing, etc,

So yes, although I like to think of ‘God given rights,’ at the same time, the rights we have in this country were written with the blood of forefathers who demanded those rights be acknowledged. Frankly, I don’t care about foreign nationals having the same rights in this country as Americans, they can apply for citizenship if it is that important to them or they can endeavor to make their homeland as awesome as this country.
Exactly, we are all free. The U.S. is one of the few countries to codify this, although it's been watered down a bit over the years. We need to work on that.

There are rights and privileges reserved for the citizens of a country. Voting is a great example! Some folks want to push for privileges by misrepresenting them as rights. Seems to often be the same folks conflating illegal entry with immigration and calling racism diversity. Put whatever pretty bow you want on it, I can smell what's in the sack.
 
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I was disappointed tonight on my drive home from work, to hear a Florida self-described gun shop owner and "gun rights advocate" proclaim that only citizens of the USA have "Second Amendment rights" - in relation to the Florida shooting by a Saudi national.

NPR was going on about hunting licenses in Florida, foreign visitors, etc., being able to buy guns. They had at least one, possibly two different people make statements about gun rights. I was driving and of course can't play it back, but I did hear the one lady plain as day make the statement that only US citizens have "Second Amendment rights".

Sorry, but while it may be that the US is one of few (or maybe only) nation that recognizes that right, it is one of a number of inalienable 'natural rights' (or as some people put it, ' god given rights'). Be definition, natural rights are rights that everyone has, not just citizens.

It just amazes me that so many people do not understand these fundamental facts regarding our rights. :rolleyes:
It just amazes me that so many people do not understand fundamental facts such as working for a living, balancing a checkbook, helping neighbors and do not even question statements uttered by politicians and the news media.
 
OP
The Heretic
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It just amazes me that so many people do not understand fundamental facts such as working for a living, balancing a checkbook, helping neighbors and do not even question statements uttered by politicians and the news media.
I shouldn't have used the word "amaze". It doesn't amaze me - I take it for granted anymore. It disappoints and frustrates me.

But I have long since come to the conclusion that this is simply human nature. We are more emotional (as in primitive emotive responses to most issues) rather than objective and rational. It is just easier that way - it literally takes more effort and energy to think rationally than it does to respond with the primitive emotional part of our brains - it is faster too; reflexive.

So it doesn't amaze me - I just chalk it up to laziness.
 
Philosophically, agreed with the original point. Every man and woman has a fundamental right to bear arms in the defense of themselves. One of the many wonderful things our Founders did was enshrine said into a Bill of Rights.
And may we have the will & fortitude to protect them.
 

AndyinEverson

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  • Howdy Y'all
  • Army
To defend yourself ...
At one time , maybe the strongest drive of the human existence...a close second to the sex drive ...though that could be debated...:D

To have one's ways and means of self preservation taken away , regulated , restricted , banned , etc...
Is to have one committed to slavery....
I say slavery , because without the means of protection , self preservation , self reliance and self worth...one is at the mercy of others...
To be at the mercy of others , is to be in their control...to be controlled , to be treated as property , to be used to further someone else and their agenda , is to be held as a slave.

Lose the 2nd Amendment and we might as well lose all the others....
Fight for one , fight for all .
Andy
 

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