I don't want to get caught with my pants down (need advice)

[Liberty97045]

Yes, learn the laws

 

[TapRackNGo]

I'll give a little input, for a handgun buy a Glock 17, 19 and be done with it. Plenty of mags & ammo when funds allow. Buy an quality AR15 with ACOG when funds allow, plenty of ammo, mags. My priority would go to the handgun as it's small and concealable. Stock up on supplies, medicine, food, etc and know what works for your family. You will need more food, water, medicine than bullets if you do it right. Understand the law.

The more you train, the less you would even want to "take it to the streets" unless it was absolutely necessary. There is a great website you should subscribe to. SHTF School sign up for the free newsletter. Read Selco's Blog

Subscribe to VICENEWS they have a number of series related to civil unrest / war. Here are a couple series that are quite good.

Russian Roulette
Ghosts of Aleppo
Battle for Iraq

That should keep you busy for quite a while. Good luck.

 

[Koda]

I'm new to guns and everything that comes along with them, but iv been hearing a lot of concerning news of isis and iv had a couple b&e attempts, I also just got marred and I want to be able to defend her and I. And if it comes to it Take it to the streets and defend my community. I don't have a lot of disposable income so I need your help to make good decisions on how to go about all this

I'm curious if you have purchased or own a firearm yet?

There are 3 disciplines to defensive firearm use. In this order.
1) Safety. Memorize Jeff Coopers 4 rules.
2) Legal. Start with Oregon's laws of course... Learn when the law allows use of lethal force, see ORS 16.219. Understand what AOJ means. Learn what the law says about possession, start with ORS 166.250. Learn the laws of the places you may travel to... http://handgunlaw.us/
3) Application (training). Get a holster. Understand that using a gun for self defense encompasses much more than just shooting accurately and engaging threats it includes situational awareness (<-- excellent article) and understanding the use of force continuum.

That is a summary of my personal strategy, I like to simplify things but the 3 topics are a life long discipline of growth and learning and all 3 topics in detail are too much to list here. I have a couple word docs where I reference from time to time and update as I go that has been invaluable to reference. I understand that you might not have a lot of disposable income to invest in professional training but until you can do ask any specific questions here

 

[Flopsweat]

Don't know what number to assign it, maybe #1.

Vote with gun rights as your 1st priority! Law abiding gun owners are getting the squeeze if you haven't been paying attention lately.

As a new gun owner it's your responsibility as much as safety. This next election you have some clear choices on gun rights issues.
We are in danger of becoming California or NY if we don't stay on top of this.

Now that's something!

Perfect. Thanks Oldnewbie.

 

[Thumper]

For defending your home theres two very good relatively inexpensive choices. #1 - a shotgun in either 12 or 20 guage. I would take 12 first as it is the larger bore and more variety in ammo types. Load with 2 3/4 inch buck shot #4 or 00 buck. You can find low recoil loads if you or your bride are recoil sensitive. A used Remington or Mossberg pump gun should be $400 or less.

The other good option is a pistol - if you are budget conscious buy a used one - glock , smith n wesson, ruger, springfield - something in 9x19mm (aka 9 parabellum or 9mm Luger) as the 9mm will be easier to shoot for a novice shooter and is a very effective round. Only use a good hollow point round for defense - leave the cheap target rounds for practice. You can get a used gun from the makers mentioned above for less than $500. New ones depending on model go new from $450 - 700 if you prefer brand new.

Take a basic gun safety class asap - you dont need to own a gun to take a class. Make sure the gun shop or seller shows you how to disassemble the gun and put it back together.

And once you buy the gun - practice with it whenever you can.

Welcome to the forum.

What he said...

 

[MikeE]

After buying t a dozen guns and shooting thousands of rounds of ammo, I started learning hand to hand combatives. My instructor told me, during a gun disarm class: "Learn to fight before you learn to shoot." That's not just because many lethal encounters begin at contact distance, but also because having a fighting mindset is necessary whether the tool is a fist, an elbow, or a gun. I see lots of people shooting away at the range who would be no danger at all to anyone except themselves (and accidentally to those around them).
An honest threat assessment might be step 1: B&E are a problem, ISIS, not so much.
http://kravmagaportland.com/

 

[usagi]

take a class. learn the safety rules and the law.
there is no reason you need to rush.

 

[Gunner3456]

Before you think about buying gun, take a class that includes 3 things. Gun safety, your rights and responsibilities according to your state's and federal laws, and some shooting time.

I don't recommend a handgun for a beginner for self defense. It takes a long time to get proficient with one, and some of that will disappear if surprise and adrenaline surface.

I would want a defensive 12 gauge shotgun. The Winchester Defender is cheap enough used, and can sometimes be found in pawn shops, independent stores and others. Other brands are good too but might cost a little more. The Defender used to be standard equipment in police cars and popular with homeowners so lots of them are floating around.

I'd want an 18 1/2 barrel which is easier to move around with than a full length barrel, but is long enough (over 18") to be legal.

I think your aim would be a lot better with that shotgun. I'd load it with 00 (pronounced "double ought") or 0000 ammunition both of which are designed to kill deer and are called "buck shot."

Whatever you decide, just remember safety first and don't forget that class.

Welcome to the forum, BTW.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The training, legal and safety aspects have been covered, so I'll suggest then getting one concealable handgun that suits you both, and both getting your concealed carry lisc. Both of you shoot and get comfortable with it, discover the best ways to carry (purse is a poor choice for the ladies but sometimes it's the only way, then you need a "gun purse") and then look for a second handgun for the other person. I do not recommend a shotgun for a newbie, especially a 12 GA. Too many variables with a shottie, and too much recoil. It's one of my absolute favorite firearms but I also love big bore rifles

You can always have a compact handgun on your person, so it's a good place to start your adventure. And you should more concern yourself with gang members, crazies and dangerous politicians (VOTE!) right in your vicinity before you worry about a few lunatics from some arab splinter group. Heck, zombies are a bigger concern for me

Also, situational awareness and passive security choices are another line of defense. One cheap option is strategically placed LED nite lights, Lowes has them

 

[40calruler]

For cheap alarms you can head to Harbor Freight and buy 2 packs of door/window alarms that are very loud. They just stick on to the frame and the door/window gets cracked and they blare an alarm.

By cheap I mean only 5.99 or so per 2 pack

 

[NoFlinch]

I would suggest you buy all the Bruce Willis action vids you can and study them closely.

Then you too can fly thru the air sideways, shooting accurately with 2-25 round flush mag. 1911's.

 

[DeanMk]

I'm new to guns and everything that comes along with them, but iv been hearing a lot of concerning news of isis and iv had a couple b&e attempts, I also just got marred and I want to be able to defend her and I. And if it comes to it Take it to the streets and defend my community. I don't have a lot of disposable income so I need your help to make good decisions on how to go about all this

Shotgun.
Because it uses a lot of little pellets that spread out as they fly through the air, you don't necessarily have to aim the weapon precisely on the target.
In low light conditions, with you likely being half asleep and the "panic" you'll likely be feeling at the time this occurs, there's a lot of be said for "pointing in the direction of", as opposed to "aiming at".
If the shotgun comes with removable chokes, make sure one of them is "Cylinder Bore" (essentially, not choke at all).
Use heavy bird shot (like a Duck/ Phesant or Goose/Turkey load), or light buckshot.
Your maximum range will be about 30-35 feet. Average will be about 10-15 feet.
At those ranges, any choke will likely be too constrictive and defeat the reason for using a shotgun and even the small birdshot pellets will be effective against the intruder/aggressor, however, should you miss, birdshot will be less likely to pass through walls and do harm to your loved ones.
Chances are, just the fact that you're letting the intruder know you're awake and have a gun, will be enough to send them scurrying off.
Most important, once you feel they're out the door, CALL THE COPS.
Let the pro's take over from there.
You can find used good used ones for less than $100, depending on the type of action.
If you're not sure of your judgement on used arms, take someone with you who knows what they're looking at.



DeanMk

 

[bolus]

Shotgun.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

After buying t a dozen guns and shooting thousands of rounds of ammo, I started learning hand to hand combatives. My instructor told me, during a gun disarm class: "Learn to fight before you learn to shoot." That's not just because many lethal encounters begin at contact distance, but also because having a fighting mindset is necessary whether the tool is a fist, an elbow, or a gun. I see lots of people shooting away at the range who would be no danger at all to anyone except themselves (and accidentally to those around them).
An honest threat assessment might be step 1: B&E are a problem, ISIS, not so much.
http://kravmagaportland.com/

^^^^ This absolutely.^^^

Get the basics of fighting empty-handed and the rest will take care of itself.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Yeah iv just been reading a lot about isis attacks on our soil

Yes they'll get into their massive armada of ships and airplanes and.. wait, that haven't got any of those.

How about their ICBM's. NO?

Would you believe a raft and carefully crafted bamboo oars?

ISIS is Latin for, "the next excuse for endless war."

 

[YoungBlood]

Those HF alarms are a good idea, also check out some youtube videos on how people can get into your house/garage. Other than that a shotgun is a good idea and practice practice practice


War is Peace
Ignorance is Strength
Freedom is Slavery...

 

[Flopsweat]

Shotgun.
Because it uses a lot of little pellets that spread out as they fly through the air, you don't necessarily have to aim the weapon precisely on the target.
In low light conditions, with you likely being half asleep and the "panic" you'll likely be feeling at the time this occurs, there's a lot of be said for "pointing in the direction of", as opposed to "aiming at".
If the shotgun comes with removable chokes, make sure one of them is "Cylinder Bore" (essentially, not choke at all).
Use heavy bird shot (like a Duck/ Phesant or Goose/Turkey load), or light buckshot.
Your maximum range will be about 30-35 feet. Average will be about 10-15 feet.
At those ranges, any choke will likely be too constrictive and defeat the reason for using a shotgun and even the small birdshot pellets will be effective against the intruder/aggressor, however, should you miss, birdshot will be less likely to pass through walls and do harm to your loved ones.
Chances are, just the fact that you're letting the intruder know you're awake and have a gun, will be enough to send them scurrying off.
Most important, once you feel they're out the door, CALL THE COPS.
Let the pro's take over from there.
You can find used good used ones for less than $100, depending on the type of action.
If you're not sure of your judgement on used arms, take someone with you who knows what they're looking at.



DeanMk

At the 10 to 15 feet that you quote, a typical 00 buck load will spread a couple of inches. You'll still need to aim, and it will make little difference what kind of choke you have on the gun. Even at 30 feet, you'll still have to aim.

Birdshot is for birds - it's notoriously spotty against burglars. Makes an ugly but shallow wound. A good rule of thumb is that anything that won't penetrate drywall isn't going to penetrate very far into a bad guy either. If you're really concerned about over-penetration, low-recoil buckshot will reduce that a bit and make follow-up shots easier. It's still very effective at short range. You can also make sure that your shot hits the bad guy - this will slow the projectiles substantially.

I would advise that you call the cops as soon as is practical, but that may be what you meant. If you have a spouse or roommate, one of you can call LE right away if you plan ahead. The sooner they know what's going on the better. Plus there's nothing like a 911 recording with your SO shouting "Drop the knife!" at the top of their lungs. Pretty compelling evidence.

I'm not riding you Dean - I don't even know you - I just want the OP to have his facts straight.

 

[frauhunter]

Zerocool319 -

With a couple of one offs you've gotten some pretty good advice in the previous posts and you've got a lot to consider. Allow me to complicate matters for you just a little more...

1> Try before you buy. Grab the Missus and go shooting with a (competent) friend. Doesn't matter what you shoot. Just light the sky, bring the thunder, and feel the shock. Pick up what you can, of course, but the basic idea is to determine if sky lighting and thunder shocking is for you and yours. Maybe it isn't - firearms are abrupt and violent and some are put off by that. If that is you, then you're out cheap and off to the dojo. Otherwise, you're stuck with us...

2> A firearm is a tool. Period. Just as in carpentry, medicine, auto mechanics, etc, you need to pick the right tool for the job. For the concerned citizen, The Basic Idea is:
- Shotgun for burglars
- Pistol for robbers
- Rifle for tyrants

3> This is something I saved from a couple of years ago:
The following ratios were compiled using data from 2004 National Safety Council Estimates, a report based on data from The National Center for Health Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau. In addition, 2003 mortality data from the Center for Disease Control was used.
-- You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane
-- You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack
-- You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack
-- You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist
-- You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack
-- You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

You are also more likely to die from medical malpractice then either "terrorism" or firearms violence, but I don't remember the ratios. ISIS isn't the worry, they're only a construct. Don't worry about Oz, strike at the little man behind the curtain - It worked for Dorothy... But I digress. As noted in an earlier post, anything occurring in the US and attributed to ISIS will be swift, devastating, and conveniently occurring just when public opinion needs to be manipulated. Like with the recent be-headings of French and English citizens. The thing to worry about is the aftermath of such an action - if it frags power, communications, and transportation for more than a week your worry is going to be your neighbor(s). Along with basic sanitation, potable water, food, shelter, and FEMA ("Hi, we're from the government - we're here to help"). But that's another story. See item 5 below.

4> The KISS doctrine applies, especially at entry level. For Odin's sake, don't let some commissioned sales predator with delusions of Mary Shelly talk you into buying an expensive Frankengun. Keep It Super Simple. The two simplest firearms germane to this discussion are the pump action shotgun and the revolver. Ease of maintenance, lower training curve, ease of use, and mechanical reliability are their strong points. It's hard enough to learn the basics of safety and marksmanship at entry level, you don't need to be tripping over unfamiliar mechanical protocols while you're doing it. You'll appreciate this even better when you come to understand what malfunction immediate action drills are, why you need to know and practice them, and that with a revolver it is simply "pull the trigger again". And yes, if you pursue this, you will later want auto-loaders. That's later. This is now. KISS. It's OK, you're married.

5> I may be reading to much into your initial post, but you may also wish to pursue the terms EDC, BOB, and Prepping. Run them through YouTube and see where they lead, you'll know in 5 minutes if I just blew the KISS doctrine.

If you get into it, join a club like the NRA, GOA, or OFF. It's nice to have a club handy when liberals show up...

Train, train, train. Training with live ammo is expensive. Consider acquiring Airsoft guns as training aids. You can safely practice things like:
- drawing your weapon;
- handling your weapon;
- moving with your weapon drawn;
- contact immediate action drills;
- target engagement (marksmanship principals are the same as with real bullet launchers)

BTW; I get what you're saying about "taking it to the streets". So does any Korean shop owner in LA.

Cheers!

Ex Gladio Libertas

 

[usagi]

the myth that shotguns don't need to be aimed is exactly that, a myth.

a shotgun is a poor choice for home defensive weapon. for any decent defense load, the recoil will be severe. and shotguns are large and unwieldy. birdshot or light buckshot makes your shotgun pretty useless as a defensive weapon. zero stopping power.

shotgun pellets still easily penetrate walls. instead of 1 bullet you are now responsible for 9 pellets.

 

[DeanMk]

At the 10 to 15 feet that you quote, a typical 00 buck load will spread a couple of inches. You'll still need to aim...Birdshot is for birds...I'm not riding you Dean - I don't even know you - I just want the OP to have his facts straight.

...and by stating that, you're saying that I don't have my facts straight.
In that sense, you are riding me, although rather deftly.

At 15 feet, using a cylinder bore, shot will generally spread about 10-12 inches.
Granted, the tighter the choke of your gun, the tighter that pattern will be.
Sounds like you did your testing with Improved Modified or Full chokes.

As for aiming, I think you misinterpreted how I was defining those two words.
(Apologies, I probably should have explained that a little better).
Aiming - The lining up of the two halves of a gun's sights, so as to put the projectile as close to a specific location on the target, as possible. Aiming.
Pointing - Asserting the muzzle end of the gun in the direction of the target. Pointing.
See the difference?
I was trying to address a situation where the OP may not have all his wits completely about him, yet he is forced to act as sanely as possible.
With the shotgun, as opposed to a handgun or a rifle, the weapon only needs to be pointed and you stand a good chance of hitting him. With a single projectile, pointing will more likely result in a complete miss.
.22-.45" vs. 10-12".
You're half asleep and you are left with no other choice than to fire on an intruder.
Which odds are you going to take?

Re: Birdshot is for birds.
I've run across this argument so many times.
It always leaves me wondering what kind of person I'm addressing.
The thought is that you need at least some form of buckshot, because its automatically assumed that it's a (your) death or (their) death situation.
This makes you, the defender, into a rather heroic type of person.
John Wayne, Dirty Harry, Chuck Norris, etc., its a nice thought and one we all fantasize about from time to time.
However, the reality is that the thought should be to just simply get the intruder out of your dwelling and off your property, then notify the professionals and let them do their job.
The taking of a life should be the absolute last resort in this situation, not the expected outcome.
"Anyone breaks into my place, I'm gonna blow their head off! ".
...John Wayne, Dirty Harry, Chuck Norris...
If you prepare for this with the mindset that a life will be taken, what does that say about you?
In my book, it shows that the defender has a lack of respect for life, and that makes them just as bad, if not worse, than the uninvited intruder who thinks they can just come on in and take possession of anything in your dwelling.

However, maybe its good that I am asked to defend my position, since there's one more scenario that I didn't address in my other post.
Assuming you own the dwelling, or at least have a cool enough landlord that will allow you to do some work on your place, there's a bit of preparation you can perform that may also keep you safe.
Let's say your bedroom door can look out onto most of the rest of your dwelling.
You can wire a light switch inside the bedroom, next to the door, that will turn on enough lights in your place to pretty well light it up.
Also, put a reverse peep hole in your bedroom door.
Now, if you think an intruder has broken into your home, in the middle of the night, you can stay hidden in your room and flip on the lights inside the house, while watching to see what happens through the peep hole.
If you live in a two story home, chances are, the light switch is already at the top of the stairs (hopefully you have a balcony to look out on the lower level with, and the intruder is still down there).
If that act alone doesn't scare off the intruder (you'd be surprised how effective the element of surprise can be), you've at least bought yourself a few moments to act on.
Hopefully you choose to call 911, while arming yourself, should the intruder decide to enter your bedroom.


Dean