I borrowed this quote

[Hawaiian]

I borrowed this from a post on another forum and am sharing it because I agree.

"Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

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[HandSolo]

but it does

 

[MarkAd]

Being "armed" does not make you able or willing to use the weapon you have. It takes practice and training. It takes a new mindset to determine when the threat has been removed. That ranges from the gun being drawn and the threat leaving to having to discharge your weapon and taking a life.

 

[joken]

You are correct. You are not armed simply by owning a handgun. On the other hand, if it is on my belt, I'm armed. A musician is still a musician even if he doesn't own an instrument. This could get somewhat complicated so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Ranb]

Here is my quote. My gun collection has killed at least five fewer people than the Kennedy clan has with automobiles, airplanes and golf clubs. Funny and true I think.

Ranb

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

More like "Owner a handgun doesn't make you bad-a$$ or tough guy"

 

[SKN]

I believe that is a derivation of a quote attributed to the late Col. Jeff Cooper who said to the effect: "Having or owning a firearm makes one no more prepared to defend oneself than having or owning a violin makes one a concert violinist". The point being that a firearm is merely a tool that may be utilized for self defense, but the actual weapon for self defense is the person wielding the tool; their mindset, their skills and their tactics.

 

[jake2far]

"Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

One can play with either, the issue is, owning a guitar and playing it poorly is playing it, owning a weapon and using it poorly still is better than throwing rocks.
Your analogy presupposes quality, playing well or shooting well. I would rather have the ability to defend myself even if it is not perfect, I could care less if you like the way I play a guitar, or shoot my gun. You are mixing up quality of performance with performance.

Taking my weapon away is disarming me even if I don't know how to use it, keeping my weapon is in fact arming me, doesn't mean I know how to use it, I still am armed.


Jim

 

[Swedish K]

OK so if you have no arms but own firearms are you still armed?

 

[Riot]

but it does

Nope- unless you were being sarcastic, I have to say you are dead wrong. If you cannot use your firearm competently then you are nothing more than a land mine that someone hasn't stepped on yet...if you are unwilling to take someone's life then you are nothing but a walking holster for someone that is willing to kill...

The analogy is sound. Pencils don't make authors, cars don't make you a NASCAR pro and simply owning a gun certainly doesn't make you safer than you were before. You have to refuse to be a victim, embrace the mentality that you may have to take someone's life and take responsibility for needing to practice and be competent enough with your firearm to hit your intended target.

Oh, and knowing the laws as to when you can use deadly force would also help...

OK so if you have no arms but own firearms are you still armed?

What do you think?

 

[JimmyS1985]

As someone with no firearms training, I dont think I have the balls to shoot a perpetrator, unless he is really threatening. If I hesitate, I won't kill. If I won't kill, I will be killed. A lot of you have much more of a military background and police training background than I do, and I've decided its time to quit being a candy ***, and get some training, because if you don't have the mindset to pull out and shoot your gun when the situation calls for it, you are as good as dead.

I completely agree with the above statement that training goes a long way with owning a firearm. Ive decided to take a CCW class for $100 as an introduction to firearms training. Ill be able to legally carry a concealed firearm in missouri, and the penalties for carrying a concealed firearm in places with a gun ban, with a permit, are surprisingly light, usually like a $35 fine or so.

Although I will admit that my biggest fear about carrying a firearm (which is why it makes much more sense to carry concealed) is someone wrestling the gun away from it and turning it on me. I dont know the exact numbers but a lot of police officers die by their own handgun, so if I were to carry a firearm on a daily basis, I think it would be imprudent to not have some sort of hand-hand combat training to defend myself incase of getting in a struggle with my firearm.

I read about a young man who wrestled a police officers gun away from him, pointed it at the police officer (police officer couldnt do anything since he was now unarmed) and then turned it on himself and shot himself in the head. Really shows the need for good hand-hand combat or MMA training if you are carrying a firearm on a daily basis.

 

[Navvet]

After 30 years in law enforcement, and someone who has faced the elephant more than once, I can tell you that training will only take you part way. Mind set is the key. Go over and over in your mind what you would do in a situation. When that fight or run sequence starts and you get tunnel vision, things will happen so fast you wont believe it.
You will fight or run, get your weapon, train with it until you can do it in your sleep and be prepared to protect your family. I pray you never have to use it. As far as the gun being taken away, MMA training wont help. You need to review gun retention techniques. MMA fighters dont fight with one hand, if you try to retain your weapon, you may only be able to fight with one hand or none until you can clear the attacker. Mind set is the key, then training etc....

 

[JimmyS1985]

Thanks for the input navvet, I would definitely like to learn gun retention techniques if I open carry, since I just listed the gun being wrestled from me as my biggest fear. I assumed there were techniques for maintaining control of your firearm in close quarters combat but did not know the term for it.

A lot of the St. Louis County police, who I might add are a very professional police force (always treated me fairly, even when I was blatantly disrespecting the law) carry a 2nd, smaller handgun. I was thinking thats a really good idea, If I get into armed security as a job, I wouldn't mind having a 2nd holster holding a glock 27 as a backup, and the Beretta M9 as my primary sidearm. If I were a police officer, I would be sure to have a compact handgun as a backup like they do.

I have a question for vets and police.

Do police/vets chamber a round and keep the safety on, prior to a day of work, or do they keep it empty, and then chamber a round when the situation calls for it?
Another one of my fears about open carry is a chambered round, somehow going off, and going through the main artery in my leg like it did in Band of Brothers.
But on the other hand it may be better to already have a round chambered so you can simply unclick the safety and start firing if you need to get a shot off ASAP, since that can be the difference between life and death.
I just wanted to ask the professionals what do they do.

 

[madcratebuilder]

After 30 years in law enforcement, and someone who has faced the elephant more than once, I can tell you that training will only take you part way. Mind set is the key. Go over and over in your mind what you would do in a situation. When that fight or run sequence starts and you get tunnel vision, things will happen so fast you wont believe it.
You will fight or run, get your weapon, train with it until you can do it in your sleep and be prepared to protect your family. I pray you never have to use it. As far as the gun being taken away, MMA training wont help. You need to review gun retention techniques. MMA fighters dont fight with one hand, if you try to retain your weapon, you may only be able to fight with one hand or none until you can clear the attacker. Mind set is the key, then training etc....

Excellent post Navvet. Mind set is the key.

 

[rufus]

No doubt, mindset is the key when it comes down to it. Situational awareness may help avoid trouble before it starts. Always try to avoid trouble by knowing your surroundings.

 

[sadiesassy]

I am not in law enforcement - but would agree with NAVvet.
Having a gun is one thing.
Being able to actually point and shot another person in self defense does take another state of mind.
I go through scenarios in my mind - what would happen if ......
Not like the TV shows.

 

[jake2far]

Nope- unless you were being sarcastic, I have to say you are dead wrong. If you cannot use your firearm competently then you are nothing more than a land mine that someone hasn't stepped on yet...if you are unwilling to take someone's life then you are nothing but a walking holster for someone that is willing to kill...

The analogy is sound. Pencils don't make authors, cars don't make you a NASCAR pro and simply owning a gun certainly doesn't make you safer than you were before. You have to refuse to be a victim, embrace the mentality that you may have to take someone's life and take responsibility for needing to practice and be competent enough with your firearm to hit your intended target.

Oh, and knowing the laws as to when you can use deadly force would also help...



What do you think?

So the Second Amendment has a flaw, it should have included "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, only if the bearer knows know how to use the arm".
I think you don't read firearms use events, there are many times people who have not trained, don't shoot regularly who have never used their weapon to protect or defend themselves, that do so successfully, there are other times Police Officers who are trained make all kinds of mistakes including loosing their weapon, shooting 41 times and missing, hitting bystandards, mistakes happen. Your judgement is not part of my "Right"
What I want to know is who are you to state "I have to say you are dead wrong", really you believe that someone who hasn't a clue how the shoot is dead wrong and shouldn't own a weapon? Maybe you could do the job of judging who could and couldn't own or carry a weapon, makes you a good antigun judge, thank God, and I mean God that I have a right to own and carry that you can't decide on.
The pencil comment is flat wrong "Pencils don't make authors" yes they do, a 7 year old in school writes simple sentences and some of them have profound impact, sexual assault has been discovered by simple writing or pictures, they wielded their pencil just fine, maybe not as good as you would like but they are authors.
The nascar comment, "cars don't make you a NASCAR pro", supports what I have already stated, I don't have to be a "NASCAR pro" to use my gun to defend myself, in fact I can be in a wheel chair or a 90 year old woman and use my gun to defend myself, I could never be a "NASCAR pro", in fact you couldn't be a "NASCAR pro" so should you give up your guns, I mean how many of us would be the equal of a "NASCAR pro" with a gun. Learning to drive is good enough for most of us and the truth is if you drive at all you wonder how the heck most of the drivers on the road get from point A to point B safely, but they do by the millions every day.
Why do you feel the need to tell others they don't know what they are doing by your standards and they shouldn't be armed? You really want the only people to be armed the equal of an approved author, or a "NASCAR pro"? Really? The only person here who is "dead wrong" is you, you don't have the "right" to decide who should own or carry a weapon, thank "GOD" for that, I for one don't want you in charge of my rights.

Jim

 

[JimmyS1985]

It takes a hard heart to kill a man. But they train you to have the mindset to do that in the military so it can be taught to regular people like myself.

One of my CCJ teachers worked at a prison and there was a prison escape. One of the requirements of prison guards is that they have to say during the interview that they are willing to shoot and kill inmates who attempt to escape. Well they had an escape at his prison, and one watch tower guard shot at the prisoners escaping, a woman, (I dont think she killed any of them, or hit any of them) and the other, a man, didn't have the mindset to shoot at the prisoners. He had to take a month worth of personal leave because he didn't shoot at the prisoners. I don't think he got fired, but it was apparent he was incapable of performing his duties as a watch tower guard, and I believe it took a mental toll on the man.

Currently I don't think I have the mindset to kill a person with my handgun. I think I can be taught it, but if you don't have the mindset to shoot to kill, what good is your weapon for? I bought it because I thought guns were cool, but since I don't have the training, the mindset and I can't afford to shoot it very often due to $18 an hour booth rental fees, all it is to me is a fancy dust collector. I like to talk guns, I do enjoy shooting them, cleaning them and showing it off to people, but I would have to say when it comes to people who own guns vs actually know how to use them, I am incapable of actually using my firearm as a weapon in a self-defense situation, currently. Which is why I refer to myself as a candy ***.

but i am working on it, going to take some firearms training on January 7th.

 

[chrislind2]

Think I just might take that extra class that the concealed carry instructor recommended. Right after Christmas, when I can afford it.

 

[Spitpatch]

Navvet and others rightly make training and mindset important. To believe that these are always decisive is wrong. Jimmy states it takes a hard heart to take a life. He is wrong. Even those who have extensive training and cultivation of the mindset (along with soft-hearted Jimmy) can never know how they might react given a specific situation of threat. The coldest heart with the best training and deadliest mindset may hesitate or actively decline based on one small situational factor (perhaps to their own demise). The meekest among us with no training or lethal mindset can instantly become a stone killer given the right situation. These truths are what makes us human.