I am looking to maybe get an FFL and do some business.

[Alexx1401]

I contend that operating as an FFL even at a tiny profit over total expenses is worth it to avoid gun restrictions.

If you didn't have to work yourself to death to make a go of it, would be fun to have. Back in the day when anyone could just have one did have a buddy who had one just to make buying easier. Back then us common folk could not order ammo shipped to us either. So several of us used him for buying guns and ammo. It was great. Now days it would be nice here that when I wanted something I would not have to wait to get the guns either. Could sell the stuff I no longer want too. Wife has a few times wanted to use her license and education to start a small business. If she ever does I think it would be worth getting an FFL to go with it just for the convenience. If I ever do the idea will not be to have it make money, just be fun to have it. If they ever decided to let people have one without a store front again I would do it now for sure but, I don't hold out hope of that.

 

[arakboss]

If you didn't have to work yourself to death to make a go of it, would be fun to have. Back in the day when anyone could just have one did have a buddy who had one just to make buying easier. Back then us common folk could not order ammo shipped to us either. So several of us used him for buying guns and ammo. It was great. Now days it would be nice here that when I wanted something I would not have to wait to get the guns either. Could sell the stuff I no longer want too. Wife has a few times wanted to use her license and education to start a small business. If she ever does I think it would be worth getting an FFL to go with it just for the convenience. If I ever do the idea will not be to have it make money, just be fun to have it. If they ever decided to let people have one without a store front again I would do it now for sure but, I don't hold out hope of that.

Since when do you have to have a store front to get FFL?

 

[Alexx1401]

Since when do you have to have a store front to get FFL?

It was back during Clinton they started to go after what we used to call "kitchen table FFL's" People who had one and worked out of their home. The were trying to get all of them out of the game. Don't know if they have totally done in all of them but for quite I while I have heard tell that they will not grant one now days unless you have some kind of "storefront" to call a business. This means more hoops as to get the storefront you have to deal with local zoning laws as far as where they will allow a "gun shop".

 

[cameron25]

It was back during Clinton they started to go after what we used to call "kitchen table FFL's" People who had one and worked out of their home. The were trying to get all of them out of the game. Don't know if they have totally done in all of them but for quite I while I have heard tell that they will not grant one now days unless you have some kind of "storefront" to call a business. This means more hoops as to get the storefront you have to deal with local zoning laws as far as where they will allow a "gun shop".

I dont think this is true, at least not now anyway. I just got my license have a home based FFL/SOT and had no problems what so ever with multnomah county zoning to my surprise. Didnt even need a permit or business license. They just basically dont want you operating as if you have a storefront in a residentially zoned neighborhood, bunch of random people coming and going or big signs up out front

 

[cameron25]

Since when do you have to have a store front to get FFL?

You dont.

 

[CountryGent]

You dont.

^.

 

[Alexx1401]

I dont think this is true, at least not now anyway. I just got my license have a home based FFL/SOT and had no problems what so ever with multnomah county zoning to my surprise. Didnt even need a permit or business license. They just basically dont want you operating as if you have a storefront in a residentially zoned neighborhood, bunch of random people coming and going or big signs up out front

Good to know. I had been hearing for a good while that the ATF would no longer grant them to the "kitchen table" crowd. That is great that they were telling me wrong.

 

[cameron25]

Good to know. I had been hearing for a good while that the ATF would no longer grant them to the "kitchen table" crowd. That is great that they were telling me wrong.

For sure. The ATF agent i met with seemed much more concerned about the zoning than the zoning dept was for sure haha. Just needed approval from them in writing for my business. It took a fair bit of research and paperwork but given this looming 114, I'm very happy i followed through on it.

 

[nwslopoke]

For sure. The ATF agent i met with seemed much more concerned about the zoning than the zoning dept was for sure haha. Just needed approval from them in writing for my business. It took a fair bit of research and paperwork but given this looming 114, I'm very happy i followed through on it.

Curious. Haven't met any ATF agents. For you FFL holders, are they for pro gun rights or more like rabid IRS agents looking for the slightest mistake?

Is that something more of us should look into doing? I'm too close to retirement to become a rookie, but I never considered it before. I almost became field tech for the FBI in my 30s, but that's a long story.

 

[cameron25]

Curious. Haven't met any ATF agents. For you FFL holders, are they using pro gun rights or more like rabid IRS agents looking for the slightest mistake?

Is that something more of us should look into doing? I'm too close to retirement to become a rookie, but I never considered it before. I almost became field tech for the FBI in my 30s, but that's a long story.

I did not get a bad vibe at all. He was not "out to get me" or anything of the sort. The agent i met is active duty military and told me he is pro 2A, i feel like we built a good report. Seems like a great dude and a firearms enthusiast. He just had to do his job, which was to make sure i knew what i was getting myself into and understood the fed and local laws and had a clear business plan. Based on what he told me his job was, it did not sound like much fun to me tho

 

[oremike]

I did not get a bad vibe at all. He was not "out to get me" or anything of the sort. The agent i met is active duty military and told me he is pro 2A, i feel like we built a good report. Seems like a great dude and a firearms enthusiast. He just had to do his job, which was to make sure i knew what i was getting myself into and understood the fed and local laws and had a clear business plan. Based on what he told me his job was, it did not sound like much fun to me tho

I make my ammo in my garage so when the agent did my on site inspection he asked about the city, sheriff and fire marshal and then called them before giving me the final okie dokie. Fortunately before I sent away for the FFL I made sure all concerned were informed and good with what I've got going on.
H wasn't out to get me either, in fact was helpful with my packaging. That's why on my tables at gun shows my ammo boxes are sealed and the samples are in zip-lock bags stapled to cards.

 

[Alexx1401]

Damn its great to hear that at least some of the ATF guys now are human and actually trying to treat people like they are the ones they are here to work with. Maybe they have done some house cleaning.

 

[oremike]

Damn its great to hear that at least some of the ATF guys now are human and actually trying to treat people like they are the ones they are here to work with. Maybe they have done some house cleaning.

Maybe you are painting the ATF in general with too broad of a paint brush. Maybe I look at them with rose-colored glasses because my dealings with them have went well. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[cameron25]

Keep in mind that oremike and my experiences are samples of one. There are idiots everywhere, including here lol. The guy i met was professional, hepful and friendly tho

 

[Alexx1401]

Maybe you are painting the ATF in general with too broad of a paint brush. Maybe I look at them with rose-colored glasses because my dealings with them have went well. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Sure, all the stories from people who had problems were all fantasy. Must be disgruntled people who just lied about them for no reason.

 

[cameron25]

Sure, all the stories from people who had problems were all fantasy. Must be disgruntled people who just lied about them for no reason.

Im sure they're true, or at least mostly. But i feel like people might be willing go out of their way to share a horrible experience more often than a vanilla pleasant one with the ATF. We met with compliance field agents to set up businesses, we weren't having our records poured over with violations suspected already or getting raided

 

[oremike]

Sure, all the stories from people who had problems were all fantasy. Must be disgruntled people who just lied about them for no reason.

I've heard the story's and even seen where a local gun shop was audited and shut down for selling guns out the back door with out doing the proper paperwork. My story and Camerons are our personal experiances. What's yours Alex or you just repeating what you've "heard"?

 

[Aero Denezol]

Damn its great to hear that at least some of the ATF guys now are human and actually trying to treat people like they are the ones they are here to work with. Maybe they have done some house cleaning.

Maybe you are painting the ATF in general with too broad of a paint brush. Maybe I look at them with rose-colored glasses because my dealings with them have went well. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I had good experience with the ATF also. The agent was cordial and professional and did not tip-off his personal political views. We went through a rigorous training up front, but they have not contacted me since except to alert me about burglaries in my area.

FWIW the problem with maintaining an FFL to skirt state regulations is the firearms then belong to the FFL and not to you. So that limits where you can keep them and in the case of certain NFA items how you can use them. Plus as an FFL you are still (primarily) obligated to serve the public and all that entails. It's a lot of paperwork and time. Really not worth the $120 dealer discount on an AK.

That's just my .02 YMMV

 

[oremike]

Something that made me smile was when Comrade Kate shut down the state, Trump declared arms and ammo a critical industry, so I kept a copy of my FFL in my wallet in case the jack-booted thugs needed to see z papers. Federal regulation trumps state regulation in this case. (See what I did there?)

 

[Helocat]

Curious. Haven't met any ATF agents. For you FFL holders, are they for pro gun rights or more like rabid IRS agents looking for the slightest mistake?

Is that something more of us should look into doing? I'm too close to retirement to become a rookie, but I never considered it before. I almost became field tech for the FBI in my 30s, but that's a long story.

The person that comes out and does the ATF inspection is not an ATF "agent". They are an ATF IOI, Industry Operations Investigator. All they do is the inspections and paperwork documenting inspections. These are the same ATF employees we all deal with on pop in inspections of your inventory if your and FFL. They are investigators of the administration kind. More info on IOI's: https://www.atf.gov/careers/industry-operations-investigators

ATF Agents are the door kickers or the guy asking you to sell your gun off the forum with no private transfer.

My interaction with the ATF staff has been great. The ATF employee that did my inspection was very polite and all business. She stressed they (the ATF) does what the current administration asks for, that was the only political part. The Portland ATF office is very helpful if you have questions.

As for rabid agent looking for the slightest mistake, that is unfortunately in some ways direct from Biden for the ATF. They have the 5 deadly sins that if an FFL crosses there is no explanations or options for the ATF, they pull your licence immediately.

Five Deadly Sins - imposed by the Biden administration. Cross any and your done.
1. Transferring a firearm to a prohibited person
2. Failing to conduct a required background check*
3. Falsifying records, such as a firearm transaction form
4. Failing to respond to a trace request
5. Refusing to permit ARF to conduct and inspection

*This one gets FFLs with the long background check waits. If it gets approved past 30 days the FFL has to do another NICS check. Imagine having 300+ customers in the que waiting to clear, 5 get approved and you call your customers and have them pick up their guns. Only that one went past 30 days and you forget/missed to run another NICS check. This will cost the dealer their FFL. This is the biggest one, that in coming inspections will probably cost a few FFLs their business due to all the really long queues we have had in the past few yrs. The IOI will see the dates not match up on inspection review, then by mandait immediately pull the FFL license.

More info on the 5 sins here:

5 FFL 'Willful' State Violation Referrals that Will Result in Mandatory Revocations

ATF published a list of five violations, that if cited on an inspection and willfully committed, will require a Notice of Revocation.

www.nssf.org