I-594 camp says they're not done yet...

[SRB]

In essence, the instructions to voters is simple. If the bill or law in any way transfers power, money, authority, or rights away from citizens it gets a NO vote. This is the starting point for those who don't research what they are reading. Only those willing to study and carefully parse the bill or law to full understanding should consider a yes vote.

 

[usagi]

^^^ may work for hardcore conservatives and gun owners. not persuasive enough for the people in the middle. won't persuade lefties at all, who are perfectly fine with conceding rights and liberties in exchange for perceived "safety".

most people vote out of self-interest or self-preservation. if they feel a bill doesn't really affect them, they are much more likely to vote yes. probably why a lot of gun owners voted for 594.

for lefties, you need to make it a matter of civil rights. self defense is a civil right. speak in terms that appeal to them.

 

[SRB]

It's interesting you say "hardcore conservatives" Exactly where would you place the founders of our country in today's political spectrum?

 

[whiskeybill]

what that means is a majority of Washingtons gun owners just f****d every other gun owner up there by not voting....

I'd like to point out that in both Oregon & Washington, there are tiny geographical enclaves that are the most densely populated as well as the most liberal. The greater Seattle / King county area in Washington and the greater Portland / Multnomah county in Oregon. Either one of these geographic areas have far more people than either Alaska or Montana. Both Washington & Oregon have conservative communities in the eastern parts of the state, but again, their voice doesn't count when an initiative is placed on the ballot like in the case of I-594. A simple majority was all it took. There were no parliamentary procedures that lawmakers would normally follow and there was no filibuster or amendments. The left likes to trumpet that "The people have spoken", but they managed to shut out a minority. The spineless lawmakers in Olympia wouldn't take this on in assembly. The only recourse now is to fight this tooth and nail in the courts. That is what the left does when they don't get their way. I have no idea how things would have turned out if the Marysville tragedy hadn't occurred, but you can bet that really sealed the deal. These voter initiatives are a tool used by the left and they should be done away with. ANY laws should be originated in, and voted on, by the various state legislatures, as intended. THAT is why these lawmakers were elected. Voter initiatives are a way of taking the voice from the minority.

Incidentally, I saw where 43 college students in Mexico were abducted, executed, and their bodies burned by the drug cartels, with the help of corrupt Mexican police and politicians. Mexico has far more draconian gun control than we do. Tell me it can't happen here.

 

[bivy53]

If I post the letter, It will contain the points you mention. People can use it or not. Just trying to give someone a path to engagement. Most won't make the effort to use their own words, but might send a well prepared piece that is handed to them. Remember how many couldn't even work up the juice to simply vote.
Most of the posters here are angry and know that action must be taken, they just don't know what, exactly, or even how. Just trying to help out and maybe give a little direction.
Could hardly believe that the first response to my original post was so negative. That's the kind of thinking that helped get us to this point in the first place.
Excuse me while I venture out into the woods to make a pile of trigger trash and try to clear my head...

 

[Doc In UPlace]

I have no idea how things would have turned out if the Marysville tragedy hadn't occurred, but you can bet that really sealed the deal.

^
Hard to overstate this. A week's worth of pre-election tragedy-wallowing by the media about this incident with none of them ever pointing out how BG checks wouldn't have made a bit of difference, was the perfect storm for the pro-594 side.

No, they're not done until only police, feds and active military have guns. All power to the state and none to the people. Utopia, right?

 

[Doc In UPlace]

The jury box is where good jurors can nullify bad law and acquit someone accused of breaking an unjust law.

Yeah, it's theoretically possible and happens, sometimes.

Ha, I don't know what juries you've served in, but in my experience most juries look like they are comprised of people abducted out of a Boise bus station at 3 am.

Most of the members know squat about law, rules of evidence and even a few are incapable of understanding the instructions the judge gave them.

Idealism aside, a lot of bad decisions have come from juries and ineffective attorneys. We always look at a jury trial as a crap shoot, roll the dice and hope.

In the America of 2014 it's politicians in robes, otherwise known as appellate judges- who decide which is law and which is an illusion.

 

[mkwerx]

Yeah, it's theoretically possible and happens, sometimes.

Ha, I don't know what juries you've served in, but in my experience most juries look like they are comprised of people abducted out of a Boise bus station at 3 am.

Most of the members know squat about law, rules of evidence and even a few are incapable of understanding the instructions the judge gave them.

Idealism aside, a lot of bad decisions have come from juries and ineffective attorneys. We always look at a jury trial as a crap shoot, roll the dice and hope.

In the America of 2014 it's politicians in robes, otherwise known as appellate judges- who decide which is law and which is an illusion.

Doc, that is because "smart" people don't want to take time off work - or cannot afford to - and thus we are left with mouth breathing slackwits who make mold look smart. I have been given jury duty summons before and either excluded or had them come back and say the defendant plead out rather than face a jury.

Maybe the whole system needs an overhaul - get rid if pleabargains entirely. And loopholes for getting out of jury duty. I would also severely limit the "right" of both prosecutor and defense attorney to exclude potential jurors. Maybe give each side one exclusion - after that you deal with who you get.

Dreamland, i know.

 

[NWesterner]

I have to disagree, most of the cops I know are not shooters, and see themselves as exempt from laws like this. So they will enforce it if told to do so, they mostly have families and value their jobs more than your freedoms.

I shoot with cops on our farmland -- cops that were against 594.

 

[NWesterner]

I wish there was a way to do a statewide survey of voters to "test" their knowledge of what they passed when they voted "Yes" on 594. If they fail the test, the vote must be redone.

Wishing.

I was actually looking at Idaho real estate yesterday. I'm beginning to think that we should truly simply have some states that are for residents who are liberal and other states for residents who are conservative. I don't think we play well together any longer. We cannot live in each other's worlds.

We can talk all day about this 594 but for me, here in SE Washington, in the country, I'm ticked at how it affects my lifestyle. Let's put this forum to good use by coming up with suggestions on what we can do to create change, what the change needs to be, how to get the change done and then why not do it?

That's the only way I think I can get rid of the nausea in my stomach.

A Huntress...

 

[JackThompson]

So right now Connecticut is openly defying the unconstitutional gun registration law passed there.

Hundreds of thousands of gun owners there are refusing to comply. They even have organizations formed to fight their anti-gun laws.

New York also has around a Million "Illegally unregistered" AR15's and other "Assault weapons"

So while I agree with Dave Workman, that we must proceed with caution, and that a Win here will likely come from the courts, there is power in joining the ranks of Connecticut and New York in open protest against unconstitutional laws.

Rhetoric makes you FEEL better, but a solid plan is what we need to move forward with.

I'm just brainstorming along with the rest of you, but I'll tell you what I perceive as one of the Liberal left's most powerful weapons.

Terms and Phrases.

They have a carefully thought out arsenal of catch phrases, designed to either make them seem like the more advanced and evolved group, or to demonize gun owners.

Phrases that make them seem move advanced and evolved?
Progressive
Liberal
Common Sense
"Smart" (Smart Car, Smart Meter, Smart
Authorities (Police, Politicians)

Phrases that make guns (And their owners) seem evil?
Gun Violence/Gun Crime
Gun Nuts
Firearm Fetishists
Assault Weapon
High Capacity Magazine


With an arsenal of terms like that it's quite easy to sway the minds of those unengaged.

Imagine a headline like this in the newspaper:
"Authorities say Gun Violence is up because Firearm Fetishists fighting Progressive Liberal Common Sense Gun Laws that would prevent children from being killed with Assault Weapons with High Capacity Magazines, Governor introduces new "Smart Safe" Gun laws to prevent Gun Crime."

...and here we are...

To me it's like watching District 13 talk about how to vote back their rights against the Capitol. (You'd have to know the Hunger Games to catch this reference.)

 

[bivy53]

Hit the nail on the head there Jack. Own the language, own the conversation. Such as "modern sporting rifle" instead of assault rifle. We need to be "realists", and "liberty minded" citizens, while the other side moves from "anti-gunners" to "anti-liberty, marxis-socialist, commie bastards" ( oops... may have gone over a little bit there, but you get my drift)

 

[addiction]

I shoot with cops on our farmland -- cops that were against 594.

I am not saying that cops would not be against I-594, I am just saying that when I think of a "shooter" I think IDPA, USPSA, steel challenge, that kind of thing where you do a lot of shooting. I too know a few cops, and a few SWAT guys, and they agree that most cops are not shooters. Some are, the ones I shoot with clearly are.

That said, if told to enforce I-594, all of them would, can't blame them, they all have families to feed. So we should not count on cops not enforcing the law as an excuse to reduce our fighting it.

 

[whiskeybill]

Just remember, political climates can change. Marijuana is still illegal at the Federal level, but they do turn a blind eye to it with this regime. The DEA is NOT interested in any enforcement of marijuana convictions because they have been told by the administration to leave it alone. How is THAT for a sworn oath to uphold laws?? I don't blame the police /law enforcement. Just following orders. Get some firearm friendly politicians elected, we can get the same results.

Some of the arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that the laws are unenforceable, too many otherwise good citizens are being ruined because of these laws, etc. Law enforcement has already said these gun laws will be unenforceable, impractical, and a burden to law enforcement. Plus, they will entrap and ruin otherwise good, law abiding citizens. Gee. I think I see a parallel argument here.

 

[John H]

There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo.

We're not there. .

I disagree , we have been down box 1,2, and 3 many times, it just might be time to jump to box 4.

 

[PiratePast40]

Just remember, political climates can change. Marijuana is still illegal at the Federal level, but they do turn a blind eye to it with this regime. The DEA is NOT interested in any enforcement of marijuana convictions because they have been told by the administration to leave it alone. How is THAT for a sworn oath to uphold laws?? I don't blame the police /law enforcement. Just following orders. Get some firearm friendly politicians elected, we can get the same results.

Some of the arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that the laws are unenforceable, too many otherwise good citizens are being ruined because of these laws, etc. Law enforcement has already said these gun laws will be unenforceable, impractical, and a burden to law enforcement. Plus, they will entrap and ruin otherwise good, law abiding citizens. Gee. I think I see a parallel argument here.

Not necessarily so. Trial of the "Kettle Falls Five" is scheduled for December. The feds have made it against the court rules that state law can even be brought up by the defense. The feds aren't turning their backs on this. I think everyone should be up in arms about the feds pizzing on state laws.
<broken link removed>

 

[U201491]

Just remember, political climates can change. Marijuana is still illegal at the Federal level, but they do turn a blind eye to it with this regime. The DEA is NOT interested in any enforcement of marijuana convictions because they have been told by the administration to leave it alone. How is THAT for a sworn oath to uphold laws?? I don't blame the police /law enforcement. Just following orders. Get some firearm friendly politicians elected, we can get the same results.

Some of the arguments for the legalization of marijuana has been that the laws are unenforceable, too many otherwise good citizens are being ruined because of these laws, etc. Law enforcement has already said these gun laws will be unenforceable, impractical, and a burden to law enforcement. Plus, they will entrap and ruin otherwise good, law abiding citizens. Gee. I think I see a parallel argument here.

Bull pucky ... Feds....if they can put a mark on you for drugs of any kind to take guns away from you the feds will use it against you... Try it and find out If you are not a gun owner or buyer they won't do you in, but if you are a gun owner or buyer, they will do you in..... It is a two faced regime .
If you are not one of them they have a ten foot screwdriver waiting for you. To believe otherwise is damned naïve. They love it................................

 

[chariot13]

what that means is a majority of Washingtons gun owners just f****d every other gun owner up there by not voting....

You can only f**k yourself by abiding by 594. If you're going to follow every law passed by any (voting) majority that dislikes your firearms then don't complain. Your doing what you consider more important, which is following a law that doesn't consider your 2nd amendment rights *more* important.

 

[Martini_Up]

Not to throw water on your fire, but who said it's unconstitutional? Has that yet been declared in a court of law? Decided by the state supreme court?
I don't believe so.

Until that time, let's ratchet down on the rhetoric. What you THINK and what I may THINK is a far cry from reality in the eyes of the court and legislature. And it's not a hot idea to be telling lawmen not to enforce the law. If they decided to not do that, it's their decision, and it won't have been reached as a result of citizen coercion.

Dave Workman's solution to a tyrannical government.... TAKE IT TO COURT!!!!

So Dave... are you going to Olympia, or what??

 

[GrpCapMandrake]

I will admit at the outset that I have not read through this entire thread, but my comment deals with a number of comments I did see as I skimmed through. I have seen a number of people talk about moving out of state because of the passage of I-594 or the possibility of more initiatives to come.

Ladies and gentlemen if you keep running away from the fight in hopes of greener pastures than soon you will be left with no greener pastures. It is vital that people not help solidify the power base of the anti-gun electorate by simply moving away and giving this state to them as a voting bloc.

Very early on in the thread it was pointed to that the number of voters on I-594 was about 1.4 million, but there are approx 4 million + voters in Washington.

I know there a lot of people that did one or all of the following:

• Capitulated on the issue of background checks as a harmless win for the anti-gun establishment.
• Decided not to vote as they do not partake in elections for (enter goofball reason here)
• Did not contribute to pro-gun political groups.

Rather than retreat to some other state in hopes of a better day I challenge you all to stay put and do what you can to generate more support for gun ownership rights in the State of Washington. I will challenge you all to stay put and do what you can to get others to actually pick up a pen, fill in a ballot and mail the bloody thing in. How hard is that?!

Rather than run, get involved.