Hypothetical: Best firearms/etc. for N. America 15,000 years ago??

[Dinglenutz]

starvation, overwork and the lash could definitely weaken one against malaria

What was the survival rate back in Africa for prisoners of tribal warfare who couldn't be disposed of via sale I wonder. Asking for a friend.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

What was the survival rate back in Africa for prisoners of tribal warfare who couldn't be disposed of via sale I wonder. Asking for a friend.

I doubt they kept records.

 

[OldBroad44]

What would have happened back in Africa? That sort of Malaria die off doesn't seem likely on its face to me. I could be wrong.

Subsaharan Africa, wherever it had the relevant transmitting mosquitos, was a heavy malaria zone where malaria killed a high proportion of native people and there had been strong selection for human mutations that confer resistance for thousands of years. The mutations are normally in hemoglobin proteins and cause various genetic diseases themselves, especially when homozygous. In some regions the frequencies of heterozygotes for the mutations are as much as 20 - 40%. The mutations are strongly selected against where there is no malaria.

The massive die offs happened in countries as malaria spread there for the first time--where there was no genetic resistance in human populations. By the time of the European migrations to the Americas, humans in southern Mediterranean lands such as Greece had already started evolving resistance to malaria.

Wealth helped, as it was swampy areas with lots of mosquitoes that were most deadly. People thought the "bad air" in such places caused the disease and the more affluent avoided them. So did military commanders when they could. In Britain there were swampy areas rich people avoided where poor people lived.

I don't think Scandinavia had malaria. So Vikings wouldn't have spread it to America.

There were massive campaigns to control malaria in US in mid 1900s. Around every military base for example. The entire TVA. Control aimed at mosquitoes by controlling water levels and via insecticides. DDT. Since relevant mosquitoes are night time types, in many parts of world staying in at night or using insecticide treated nets over beds or sleeping hammocks are important.

Our plans to go back 15,ooo years should include life's supply of insect repellants. Who wants to get drained by insects, even if they didn't transmit malaria then and there.

 

[OldBroad44]

...the physical realities of slavery would make you have a much lower survival rate anyway. I would imagine the fever and weakness would be called laziness by some overseers....

Right. Apparently slave holders often simply worked slaves to death. Slaves from Subsaharan Africa probably had better heat adaptation than most Europeans. But they aren't immune to heat strokes. Free people in hot climes usually don't do hard physical labor during the hottest part of the day. Slaves in Americas apparently usually worked in field pretty nearly all daylight hours, whatever the weather. In addition, their diet was usually poor. Many lived on almost nothing but corn. A diet of just corn without meat or greens is niacin difficient and causes pellagra. Symptoms: dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, death. In fact, many poor people in the South white or black had pellagra even post slavery. Pellagra was virtually eliminated in USA when laws were passed requiring vitamin supplementation of commercial corn and wheat meals and flours. Its still a problem where people have corn or sorghum based diets with no meat, animal products, or greens. (Greens also have niacin. And we can also make our own niacin if we have the amino acid tryptophan, which we can't make but can get from animal products.)(Corn and sorghum have less niacin than other grains. The niacin in corn is not very bioavailable either. Nixtamalizing corn into hominy, masa, tortillas, etc. makes the niacin in corn more bioavailable. Nixtamalizing your corn can be nutritionally critical if you have a corn based diet with no animal products or greens, but not of nutritional significance otherwise.)

 

[The Heretic]

Beyond guns and tools, as some have mentioned, it would be good to take along skills/experience, including those which would help the indigenous people improve their situation.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Beyond guns and tools, as some have mentioned, it would be good to take along skills/experience, including those which would help the indigenous people improve their situation.

I ignored the etc part of the question. Obviously if we're going wild I'll take a wagon train of domestic animals, supplies, and fellow settlers with me. Why not. All the stuff needed to set up electric generation, simple factories and industries, agriculture ...

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Subsaharan Africa, wherever it had the relevant transmitting mosquitos, was a heavy malaria zone where malaria killed a high proportion of native people and there had been strong selection for human mutations that confer resistance for thousands of years. The mutations are normally in hemoglobin proteins and cause various genetic diseases themselves, especially when homozygous. In some regions the frequencies of heterozygotes for the mutations are as much as 20 - 40%. The mutations are strongly selected against where there is no malaria.

The massive die offs happened in countries as malaria spread there for the first time--where there was no genetic resistance in human populations. By the time of the European migrations to the Americas, humans in southern Mediterranean lands such as Greece had already started evolving resistance to malaria.

Wealth helped, as it was swampy areas with lots of mosquitoes that were most deadly. People thought the "bad air" in such places caused the disease and the more affluent avoided them. So did military commanders when they could. In Britain there were swampy areas rich people avoided where poor people lived.

I don't think Scandinavia had malaria. So Vikings wouldn't have spread it to America.

There were massive campaigns to control malaria in US in mid 1900s. Around every military base for example. The entire TVA. Control aimed at mosquitoes by controlling water levels and via insecticides. DDT. Since relevant mosquitoes are night time types, in many parts of world staying in at night or using insecticide treated nets over beds or sleeping hammocks are important.

Our plans to go back 15,ooo years should include life's supply of insect repellants. Who wants to get drained by insects, even if they didn't transmit malaria then and there.

I might point out that Vikings had ties to Constantinople amongst other places. (The Varangian Guard of the Emperor were Norse ) Those folks looted lots of Europe and frankly, folks got around a bit more than we often think. The norse were merchants as well as warriors and strangely played a strange role in the Byzantine empire. That's actually my train of thought. It makes sensethat if there were early contact either from Europe or asia, that diseases might have hit earlier than thought. Again, this is a mere thousand years distant

I once saw a radio-isotope analysis of impurity content in ancient coins. The distances those metals got to where they were minted was absolutely amazing.

 

[OldBroad44]

I might point out that Vikings had ties to Constantinople amongst other places. (The Varangian Guard of the Emperor were Norse ) Those folks looted lots of Europe and frankly, folks got around a bit more than we often think. The norse were merchants as well as warriors and strangely played a strange role in the Byzantine empire. That's actually my train of thought. It makes sensethat if there were early contact either from Europe or asia, that diseases might have hit earlier than thought. Again, this is a mere thousand years distant

I once saw a radio-isotope analysis of impurity content in ancient coins. The distances those metals got to where they were minted was absolutely amazing.

What limits where malaria is endemic is in part where the Anopheles mosquitoes can thrive. temperature also matters. In colder areas malaria bugs don't have time to complete their life cycle in the mosquito so as to reach the stage of transmission in mosquito saliva to a human.

 

[tac]

Meanwhile, what guns.................................................etc.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Meanwhile, what guns.................................................etc.

Pending the etc, I'd take something like my car or a 4 wheeler for storage or travel to a good location, a few gas cans as well. That would allow for a relatively choosy place to be made in location. Also, a car could make for a reasonable shelter while constructing a more permanent one. some sheets of 1095 steel would be a good choice as well, and a couple good hammers and a couple whetstones. I think some basic blacksmithing might be useful to yourself, and ingratiating to any tribes you met. Hardened steel axe heads and spear heads would be useful to say the least.

It would also up my ammo loadout to a reasonable supply.

 

[The Heretic]

One of the constraints was no motorized vehicles or contrivances.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

One of the constraints was no motorized vehicles or contrivances.

Then ox cart it is! Or Travois. A car, while useful would be a short range, one time use item functionally, with no resupply. The more I think on it, the more valuable hammers and a small anvil and some 1095 would be. While flint knapping can produce arrow heads, small arrow heads made of steel would be easier to make. The ability to make knives and tomahawk heads would be valuable as well.

An ox cart loaded with a few axe heads, some steel, several weeks of dry goods, knives and a crap ton of lighters and ammunition would be very useful. If one could bring such a contrivance, the loadout for me would oddly get simpler as one could immediately lay into making a dwelling and palisade. And the ability to make a few hatchets would likely enable you to make alliances easier. The difference in efficiency of a steel vs stone axe is orders of magnitude.

 

[The Heretic]

Then ox cart it is! Or Travois. A car, while useful would be a short range, one time use item functionally, with no resupply. The more I think on it, the more valuable hammers and a small anvil and some 1095 would be. While flint knapping can produce arrow heads, small arrow heads made of steel would be easier to make. The ability to make knives and tomahawk heads would be valuable as well.

An ox cart loaded with a few axe heads, some steel, several weeks of dry goods, knives and a crap ton of lighters and ammunition would be very useful. If one could bring such a contrivance, the loadout for me would oddly get simpler as one could immediately lay into making a dwelling and palisade. And the ability to make a few hatchets would likely enable you to make alliances easier. The difference in efficiency of a steel vs stone axe is orders of magnitude.

If a person could bring an automobile, then they could bring a tank, or troop carrier or at least an RV. At some point it gets a bit ridiculous as to what someone could bring and how much it could carry. I was thinking along the lines of keeping it somewhat primitive, but with the benefit of firearms, and as such, what firearms would someone choose.

I am currently reading a book set where a team of four people were sent back in time 47K years, but the gov that sent them did not allow them to take firearms. I like to think up story plots, but I am too lazy to actually write them - one of my favorite plots would involve the theme of this thread - I think it is an interesting though exercise - and not just for firearms.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

If a person could bring an automobile, then they could bring a tank, or troop carrier or at least an RV. At some point it gets a bit ridiculous as to what someone could bring and how much it could carry. I was thinking along the lines of keeping it somewhat primitive, but with the benefit of firearms, and as such, what firearms would someone choose.

I am currently reading a book set where a team of four people were sent back in time 47K years, but the gov that sent them did not allow them to take firearms. I like to think up story plots, but I am too lazy to actually write them - one of my favorite plots would involve the theme of this thread - I think it is an interesting though exercise - and not just for firearms.

I am thinking functionally an ox cart would actually be superior to a car. I guess I am thinking along the lines of my mentor as a teen, who was 80 years older than me. He lived in a dugout near the Columbia as a kid and was a blacksmith. As a result, I am far more familiar with survival using technology circa 1900. He taught me most of my survival skills and some blacksmithing and metalwork.


For me the ability to say pack 50 pounds of steel and a small anvil is a game changer. Totally would revolutionize survival chances. Also, lots more ammo. For example, in a travois, there really is going to be a low upper limit of rounds, and frankly, probably not enough for me to survive 20 years as a hunter gatherer. Establishing home and setting up a reasonable defense would be the first order of the day. By defense here, I am thinking walls of some kind of a house. Probably a dugout with some form of door.

Also with variants of flora and fauna it would be alien as to what to eat. The plants I think would be the hardest part.

 

[Dinglenutz]

I am thinking functionally an ox cart would actually be superior to a car.

Yep, or even a mule train.

 

[Xaevian]

Considering the area is still in the grip of an ice age, a warm blanket, blankets to trade, and small pox. Too soon?

 

[OldBroad44]

If a person could bring an automobile, then they could bring a tank, or troop carrier or at least an RV. At some point it gets a bit ridiculous as to what someone could bring and how much it could carry. I was thinking along the lines of keeping it somewhat primitive, but with the benefit of firearms, and as such, what firearms would someone choose.

I am currently reading a book set where a team of four people were sent back in time 47K years, but the gov that sent them did not allow them to take firearms. I like to think up story plots, but I am too lazy to actually write them - one of my favorite plots would involve the theme of this thread - I think it is an interesting though exercise - and not just for firearms.

Try reading the great SF classic Time Enough for Love, by Robert Heinlein. The middle section is the story of Lazarus Long leaving the first town they established on a new planet and heading into the wilderness with his pregnant wife in two Conestoga wagons with various livestock and 2000 lbs of goodies per wagon, described in detail, along with much philosophy about surviving and thriving in that and all other situations. They had a special breed of fertile mules. Used six mules to haul each wagon plus had 4 extras following. Milk cow and young bull. Pregnant sow and young bore. Chickens and two roosters. Two good well trained dogs. Cats. Once they opened pass they expected more settlers to follow, so were assuming they would be alone only the first few years. And other settlers would have kids to be mates of their kids, additional livestock, etc.

Kindle Unlimited has a 1859 book The Prairie Traveler:A Handbook for Overland Expeditions. For anyone going from Mississippi to Pacific. By Randolph B Marcy, Captain, U.S. Army. Published by authority of war department. Everything from what to take, mules vs oxen. Caring for and grazing livestock along the way, dealing with and fighting Indians, hunting, rations per person, etc. I think I'll buy one of the illustrated editions and dump my freebie version. First rate. I especially liked tracking info. A lot I didn't know.

 

[The Heretic]

I am thinking functionally an ox cart would actually be superior to a car. I guess I am thinking along the lines of my mentor as a teen, who was 80 years older than me. He lived in a dugout near the Columbia as a kid and was a blacksmith. As a result, I am far more familiar with survival using technology circa 1900. He taught me most of my survival skills and some blacksmithing and metalwork.


For me the ability to say pack 50 pounds of steel and a small anvil is a game changer. Totally would revolutionize survival chances. Also, lots more ammo. For example, in a travois, there really is going to be a low upper limit of rounds, and frankly, probably not enough for me to survive 20 years as a hunter gatherer. Establishing home and setting up a reasonable defense would be the first order of the day. By defense here, I am thinking walls of some kind of a house. Probably a dugout with some form of door.

Also with variants of flora and fauna it would be alien as to what to eat. The plants I think would be the hardest part.

If you can move it under your own power, i.e., unassisted by animal or machine, then that is allowed (I already kind of bent the starting constraints by allowing a dog). I guess it depends on the cart and what it contains as to whether it would be allowed.

 

[Camelfilter]

If you can move it under your own power, i.e., unassisted by animal or machine, then that is allowed (I already kind of bent the starting constraints by allowing a dog). I guess it depends on the cart and what it contains as to whether it would be allowed.

I've been thinking on modifying/replacing parts of the cart with polycarbonate sheets & or deck. Would be able to use such to make windows/lookout ports etc for whatever block house.

Said cart would be overloaded simply to "get thru" whatever portal. Then used to shuttle portage safely depoed supplies/gear.

Any movement away from said portal drop zone would be a markedly laborious & drawn out affair. So much so, that more than likely within 10 miles of said would be my permanent home the rest of my life. Unless, I could figure a way to locate & integrate with accepting indingenous peoples.

Having dogs would be a big help, as mentioned. Would also allow for further afield exploration away from an initially secured site. Without the added security, I don't see solo backpacking being survivable for long. Firearms, or not.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Also, lots more ammo.

Maybe a modern crossbow, some replacement parts and spares would be a worthy addition for the long term, if hunting and not fishing is the plan. I would favor fishing and farming with hunting as a third option if I had a choice.

The bow is pretty quiet too.