Hypothetical: Best firearms/etc. for N. America 15,000 years ago??

[tac]

Fyi........."Clovis first" is dead.

Humans arrived in North America at least 15,000 years earlier than we thought, discoveries show — which suggests they came by boat

When and how the first people arrived in North America is up for debate. New studies suggest the continent was populated as early as 30,000 years ago.

www.businessinsider.com

-E-

Yup. Read Graham Hancock's book 'Before America' to get the skinny - well, HIS take, on what REALLY went on before the Clovis people got the point.

You have to remember that even Kennewick Man had to have had ancestors. How he ties in with the Clovis people is not yet clear.

My late and much-missed friend Joe Evans and I would have long talks on the deck about the populating of the Americas, and often remarked on the astounding DIS-similarities among the peoples of North and South Americas in both appearance and modus vivendi.

 

[nehalemguy]

Yup. Read Graham Hancock's book 'Before America' to get the skinny - well, HIS take, on what REALLY went on before the Clovis people got the point.

You have to remember that even Kenniwick Man had to have had ancestors, and they were categorically NOT the present-day indigenous people of the PNW.

My late and much-missed friend Joe Evans and I would have long talks on the deck about the populating of the Americas, and often remarked on the astounding DIS-similarities among the peoples of North and South Americas in both appearance and modus vivendi.

Actually Kennewick man has been shown to be related to modern Native Americans, including those in the region he was found, through DNA testing in 2014-15.

First DNA tests say Kennewick Man was Native American

Nearly two decades after the ancient skeleton called Kennewick Man was discovered on the banks of the Columbia River, the mystery of his origins appears to be nearing resolution. Genetic analysis is still under way in Denmark, but documents obtained through the federal Freedom of Information Act...

www.oregonlive.com

-E-

 

[tac]

Actually Kennewick man has been shown to be related to modern Native Americans, including those in the region he was found, through DNA testing in 2014-15.

First DNA tests say Kennewick Man was Native American

Nearly two decades after the ancient skeleton called Kennewick Man was discovered on the banks of the Columbia River, the mystery of his origins appears to be nearing resolution. Genetic analysis is still under way in Denmark, but documents obtained through the federal Freedom of Information Act...

www.oregonlive.com

-E-

I stand corrected, thank you.

I assume, then, that he is their Great-Uncle Frank on the mother's side, 272 times removed?

Close enough.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Here's an interesting question for said scenario. Would you consider reloading your spent brass?

No, I'd expect to survive using a water filter, traps, fishing, and so on. The firearms would be to give me an edge for the rest of my life, however long that might be. North America 15K years ago wasn't a magical storybook place filled with super predators. A few big cats and some hairy elephants I think. If a person died early it would probably be medical or due to exposure.

 

[The Heretic]

Here's an interesting question for said scenario. Would you consider reloading your spent brass?

Would seem worthwhile for folks whom would think they want to bring along "a lot" of center fire ammunition. You'd still need powder, primers, projectiles & reloading gear. The weight savings would be reusing the brass.

Ex: on average 1,000 rounds of 7.62x51 weighs 53lbs. 1,000 empty cases weighs around 25 lbs.

1,000 5.56 ball weighs around 25-27lbs, while 1,000 empty cases weighs ~13.5lbs.

1,000 115gr 9mm weighs around 25lbs, while 1,000 empty cases weighs ~8.5lbs.

I don't anticipate I would be using a lot of ammo. Most of it would be used hunting. If I have to defend myself against other humans for the rest of my life, one person against many, I and the ammo would not last long. If I used 1000 rounds of centerfire hunting ammo over my remaining lifetime, then I would either be doing something wrong or I would be in a very hostile environment. As others have said, it would be better to avoid the hostiles than engage them - ammo would be either for hunting or emergency self-defense.

That said, this is an academic exercise, and one where we are speculating the circumstances.

 

[tac]

Might as well ask what musical instrument would you take with you. Personally, I'd be quite happy to see every kazoo, banjo and ukelele get sent back to the Pleistocene, without me, of course.

 

[The Heretic]

No, I'd expect to survive using a water filter, traps, fishing, and so on. The firearms would be to give me an edge for the rest of my life, however long that might be. North America 15K years ago wasn't a magical storybook place filled with super predators. A few big cats and some hairy elephants I think. If a person died early it would probably be medical or due to exposure.

There were "megafauna", i.e., the risks from predators would be greater than today, especially since the predators of the time period would be less afraid of humans and more inclined to view humans as prey. In short, i am assuming a human would need to be much more aware of their surroundings and would be better off in groups. An individual by themselves trying to shelter in a backpacking tent would maybe not last long - guns or not? I am thinking a person would need to construct a "hard sided" shelter or join a group of other humans rather quickly.

 

[Camelfilter]

I don't anticipate I would be using a lot of ammo. Most of it would be used hunting. If I have to defend myself against other humans for the rest of my life, one person again many, I and the ammo would not last long. If I used 1000 rounds of centerfire hunting ammo over my remaining lifetime, then I would either be doing something wrong or I would be in a very hostile environment. As others have said, it would be better to avoid the hostiles than engage them - ammo would be either for hunting or emergency self-defense.

That said, this is an academic exercise, and one where we are speculating the circumstances.

Agreed, it wouldn't be possible to defend oneself against humans. Beyond some odd single hostile interaction.

However there would be the concern over defending oneself from normal predators & scavengers, and the odd super predators. All truly unknowns. Especially if living primarily in a single location.

I'd think a nomadic lifestyle in said situation, solo would be about an impossibility. We don't have eyes in the backs of our heads, and have to sleep.

Without a band of others to travel with, I'd be inclined to think life would be lived within some short distance of where you landed. Water ways, perhaps being the exception.

 

[nehalemguy]

I stand corrected, thank you.

I assume, then, that he is their Great-Uncle Frank on the mother's side, 272 times removed?

Close enough.

He had a rough life. Six broken ribs, dents to his head, bad shoulder, and a Cascade point permanently lodged in his hip. It gives some insight into how tough the times were.

-E-

 

[Dinglenutz]

An individual by themselves trying to shelter in a backpacking tent

I'm seeing more a riverside dugout with a couple tiger-skin rugs in front of the hearth.

 

[revjen45]

"im just guessing Most tribes in that era probably killed any invading single strangers or made them slaves."

As has been noted before, it is hard to enslave an armed person. The Thunderbolt of Death could demonstrate your powers against the locals if necessary. OTOH, dropping something big to feed everybody might make you popular enough that they don't want to kill you.

 

[tac]

He had a rough life. Six broken ribs, dents to his head, bad shoulder, and a Cascade point permanently lodged in his hip. It gives some insight into how tough the times were.

-E-

Ah sure, 'tis no wonder he was dead, then. ''twasn't just the drowning that kilt him, eh? He's obviously upset somebody, that's for sure, so it is.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

He had a rough life. Six broken ribs, dents to his head, bad shoulder, and a Cascade point permanently lodged in his hip. It gives some insight into how tough the times were.

-E-

unfortunately, sounds like me. 30+ broken bones. No arrowhead in my hip though.

I'm seeing more a riverside dugout with a couple tiger-skin rugs in front of the hearth.

I'd stay away from the river to avoid malaria in my dugout.

 

[OldBroad44]

ge

"im just guessing Most tribes in that era probably killed any invading single strangers or made them slaves."

As has been noted before, it is hard to enslave an armed person. The Thunderbolt of Death could demonstrate your powers against the locals if necessary. OTOH, dropping something big to feed everybody might make you popular enough that they don't want to kill you.

Very easy for group to kill or enslave solo armed person. Armed person still has to sleep.

Dropping something big with a gun would likely impress locals with the desire to eliminate you and get your gun. You would be declaring yourself more a man than all the local men. Good luck with that. If you had mixed martial arts skills, that could be useful, as you could set up friendly contest, then teach/share the skill.

 

[tac]

unfortunately, sounds like me. 30+ broken bones. No arrowhead in my hip though.

I'd stay away from the river to avoid malaria in my dugout.

Surely it's your dugout you need to stay away from? It has malaria in it.

 

[Dinglenutz]

unfortunately, sounds like me. 30+ broken bones. No arrowhead in my hip though.

I'd stay away from the river to avoid malaria in my dugout.

Unless my history is wrong, you'd have to live to be about 14,500 years old in this scenario to have malaria be an issue.

 

[The Heretic]

Unless my history is wrong, you'd have to live to be about 14,500 years old in this scenario to have malaria be an issue.

And in a tropical/sub-tropical region. Most of N. America is not tropical.

 

[The Heretic]

Armed person still has to sleep.

A person might want to take along a good guard dog, or find one. One that will obey, stay close and not go chasing after squirrels.

 

[The Heretic]

That said, a person would probably want to get vaccinations for things like lyme disease and anything else they are more likely to get in a much more primitive environment where they are living closer to wildlife/etc.

 

[Dinglenutz]

And in a tropical/sub-tropical region. Most of N. America is not tropical.

Apparently from the 15th century on there was malaria in what became the continental USA except for Alaska, but I'm not sure how common. But 15K years ago not so much, and I like easy fishing. At that point there were not many humans here at all, and it's far from a given they would be hostile. If a person could show usefulness I strongly suspect friends could be made if one ever happened to meet others.

But I think the odds would be in favor of that never happening.