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What do you need armor piercing ammo for?

You said: "Bear in mind this would be a time when there were Smilodons (saber tooth tiger), bear dogs or at least dire wolves, and other large dangerous predators, mastodons, bisons and other megafauna."

I'm hoping the armor piercing will go thru the skulls of some of those if I need to kill them in self defense. Trying to get the job done with minimal weight. I know, it's not a great hunting caliber, but don't want to carry enough .375 H&H to last a lifetime. :)

I guess I could just take a good .22LR for self defense and shoot them in both eyes so they couldn't find me. :)
 

OldBroad44

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It's fine to mourn them at a distance in time. However, coming across a Dire Wolf - four times bigger than the present-day version, or a Smilodon, whilst out doing the shop might alter your degree of woe somewhat. Even a giant sloth - the same size as a reasonably sized U-Haul - could ruin your plans if it sat on you accidentally whilst it was munching at the local fruit tree.
I just realized why I am sadder about the Younger Dryas extinction than others much worse. Besides it being so recent. Its because it was mammals. Actually the height of the time of mammals. The dinosaurs, on the other hand -- had they not been eliminated, the mammals wouldn't have exploded into prominence and diversity, primates included. And anyway, I looked up at an ostrich across a farm fence once, and found I really did not like looking up at a bird. An ostrich was already a bigger dinosaur than I really wanted to meet.
 
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The implication in your statement is the the person you addressed this comment to is actually the end-link in an indigenous trail of ancestry.

What are the chances of that unless he or she is purely native American?

Time to read Graham Hancock's provoke-thoughting tome - 'Before America', and give some consideration to the mega-disaster that befell North america about 12,000 years ago that gave rise to the Younger Dryas.
My comment was more of the tongue in cheek type , than one to be taken seriously. :D

If , in any event , such a thing were to happen to me , as what the OP is about...
I would go about the business of staying alive , if I ended up as someone's dinner , I hope I give him the sh!ts.:D
Andy
 

OldBroad44

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Can we knock fifty or sixty years off our chronological age while traveling back 15,000 years? If this happened to me at age 75, I'd probably just look for a bit of no mans land between two tribes and try to live out my life quietly and alone. But if about 15, what the hay. I'd look for people. Figure on integrating into a tribe, having a family, etc. Of course, would likely be a slave. At least initially. Whatever else, there would be lots to learn. And who knows, maybe I could help get agriculture and plant and animal domestication started in the Americas 7000 years earlier. Including domesticating horses and other critters before they got hunted to extinction. (I'm a plant breeder, BTW.) That might put Native American civilization 3000 years ahead of Europe instead of 4000 years or so behind. Maybe it would be Americans who sailed the ocean blue and discovered Europe instead of the reverse. Which might have changed the course of European history so much that my European ancestors might have never been born. Whoops.

(Actually, even if I managed to pull off some major dramatic contribution, it would likely all be canceled when the Younger Dryas came.)
 
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Boat/canoe idea is brilliant!

Would that be an acceptable mode to carry gear thru whatever “portal” @The Heretic?

I am behind and slow in reading this thread. I am multi tasking while on this forum.

The boat/canoe idea is what I would say too.

Portage across some areas if you can (Two or more people.) and if you can't do this easily and are all alone or only have one other person with you who couldn't pull their weight (Lift and move the canoe.) - leave it on the shore/beach.

Cate
 
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A 03A3 Springfield would be my firearm of choice...

With that said...
I'd rather have my Osage Orange longbow , one of my spears and my favorite knife...my Blackjack Model 5...
Given the circumstances.

My job would to survive , not conquer the land...seems to me at least , it would be best to think like prey and avoid interaction with anything.
Andy

This or part of this post!

Cate
 

Mark W.

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Better pick a place where water does not restrict your movement. Could be a real pain in the butt to have to cross something like the Willamette river or the Columbia or the Snake or even the Pudding. Unless you have a canoe etc.
 

The Heretic

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You said: "Bear in mind this would be a time when there were Smilodons (saber tooth tiger), bear dogs or at least dire wolves, and other large dangerous predators, mastodons, bisons and other megafauna."

I'm hoping the armor piercing will go thru the skulls of some of those if I need to kill them in self defense. Trying to get the job done with minimal weight. I know, it's not a great hunting caliber, but don't want to carry enough .375 H&H to last a lifetime. :)

I guess I could just take a good .22LR for self defense and shoot them in both eyes so they couldn't find me. :)

Armor piercing would be better than expanding ammo for breaking bones/etc. to get to vitals, but you need mass too (not something .223 is known for) to get penetration, that is why AP is usually heavier projectiles. To each their own.
 

tac

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Just a bit of advice. based on work I did a few years back on wikipedia, based, itself, on my Masters dissertation on the ice-age floods of the prehistoric PNW.

Stay away from Eastern Oregon and Washington states, and also Western Montana where it all began around present-day Missoula.

One of my fellow grads worked out that the air pressure from the moving wave of 500 CUBIC MILES of floodwater was enough to render you into a thin smear on the landscape.

You bin warned!!

Oh, and stay well clear of what is now called the Willamette Valley - it was once a very large and deep lake called Lake Allison....

Lake Missoula was a prehistoric proglacial lake in western Montana that existed periodically at the end of the last ice age between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. The lake measured about 7,770 square kilometres (3,000 sq mi) and contained about 2,100 cubic kilometres (500 cu mi) of water, half the volume of Lake Michigan.

One day the ice dam. holding all this back, just let go............................................

Just saying that the Dry Falls in WA was ten times bigger than Niagara and four times higher. And the Columbia River Gorge was a gently-banked stream-like river of no particular significance - Multnomah Falls was not a falls at all, but a stream that fed the baby Columbia, until the first of the floods came and took away the five hundred feet of landscape from under it.

Here's an artist's impression of it heading your way - thanks to Stev. Ominski for his frighteningly wonderful graphic view -

1618835997661.png

The hump you see on the right centre is the future site of Crown Point.

This here is a photograph taken of the hillside overlooking UM main hall - you can see, I hope, the horizontal striations - called benchmarks - that were the former lakeside edges. At one time this part of Missoula was under more than 900 feet of water.

1618836464422.png

Oh, just forgot to mention. This Calamity with a capital C did not happen just once, as you've probably figured out by looking at those clues above.

Or twice.

Or even ten times.

Nosirree, Ladies and genellmen...

It happened AT LEAST FIFTY-THREE times.

Please read - if interested - http://hugefloods.com/IceAgeFloodsInstitute.html
 
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The Heretic

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Just a bit of advice. based on work I did a few years back on wikipedia, based, itself, on my Masters dissertation on the ice-age floods of the prehistoric PNW.

Stay away from Eastern Oregon and Washington states, and also Western Montana where it all began around present-day Missoula.

One of my fellow grads worked out that the air pressure from the moving wave of 500 CUBIC MILES of floodwater was enough to render you into a thin smear on the landscape.

You bin warned!!

Oh, and stay well clear of what is now called the Willamette Valley - it was once a very large and deep lake called Lake Allison....

Lake Missoula was a prehistoric proglacial lake in western Montana that existed periodically at the end of the last ice age between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago. The lake measured about 7,770 square kilometres (3,000 sq mi) and contained about 2,100 cubic kilometres (500 cu mi) of water, half the volume of Lake Michigan.

One day the ice dam. holding all this back, just let go............................................

Just saying that the Dry Falls in WA was ten times bigger than Niagara and four times higher. And the Columbia River Gorge was a gently-banked stream-like river of no particular significance - Multnomah Falls was not a falls at all, but a stream that fed the baby Columbia, until the first of the floods came and took away the five hundred feet of landscape from under it.

Here's an artist's impression of it heading your way -

Yeah, I thought about that.
 
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I would not want to push or pull a cart of ANY type.

One wheel, 2 or more wheels - no way and at any age.

I would like to have a canoe or some type of boat.

I would stay OUT of the way of large beasts and not make them NOTICE me.

I would TRY to blend into my surroundings - nature.

I would have several but NOT ALL of my currently owned FIXED BLADE ONLY knifes ON my body and with me. Ka-Bar military/survival knives, Buck hunting/camp knives and some Swedish/Finnish knives.

I would have one good axe and one good 'hawk with me!

I own more than one axe and one 'hawk but I would NOT want to carry ALL of that weight on me or in a leather bag that I rigged up.

I would NOT want to carry a LOAD OF STUFF ON MY BODY or carry some on my body and in my leather bag/sack IF I did not have a permanent CAMP SITE or rigged up shelter/cabin even if it was a CAVE covered with twigs/logs and with only a small opening for a human being to get in and out of AND close to a good water source and close to a canoe IF I had a canoe.

I would NOT want to be in a CAVE year round due to the cold/wet/etc. conditions too - NOT a year round shelter for sure! I don't care how much heat/light that you can get from a fire - that type of living would not cut it for sure!

I would have a good spear (I do NOT own a spear yet. I do not own a sword yet too. LOL) and some type of a pitchfork - a really strong pitchfork that could be a multi purpose tool.

I think that a firearm shooting into the WILD would ONLY DRAW UNWANTED ATTENTION to yourself in some situation like this but I could be WRONG. Noise!

I would be sure that I had home made or bought (? - LOL - Grin.) fishing pole and a net of some type.

The LONG to medium length spear could be used for self defense (Don't laugh!) and for fish or game.

If I could take 1 to 3 rifles with me AND if I had an unlimited supply of AMMUNITION (LOL) in the WILD - it would be a lever action rifle in 30-30 and/or my CZ bolt action rifle in 22wmr and in 22lr.


ONE RIFLE? My CZ 457 Lux in 22wmr. A lot of ammunition with less weight.

(There is a second CZ 457 Lux in 22wmr here that belongs to my husband. Plenty of CZ 22lr rifles too.)

TWO RIFLES? Above plus my CZ 457 Lux in 22lr. A lot of ammunition with less weight.

THREE rifles in my HUT, cave, cabin/shelter? A 30-30 lever action rifle but the ammunition would be EASIER TO LUG around with a GOOD 22wmr or 22lr bolt action rifle or a 22wmr or 22lr lever action rifle.

I would choose the BOLT ACTION FIRST for BOTH of the CZ 457 Lux RF rifles. Plus I and/or WE NO longer OWN ANY RF - 22lr and 22wmr rifles in LEVER ACTION.

Now that I think about it... scratch the 30-30 lever action rifle due to the WEIGHT of the AMMUNITION and size of the cartridges... lugging it all around IF I had to FLEE my 'home'.

And that IS if I would even take ANY GUN with me - be able to CARRY IT ALL ALONE.

I would rather RELY on avoiding conflict, be able to move quietly and swiftly, carry a light load and not be NOTICED by some huge creature!

I would want to have some type of a CLUB with me too. ADDED more here.

Old Lady Cate
PS: I would rather LIVE in another TIME IN HISTORY too!
 
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"Of course, would likely be a slave. At least initially."

Why would you be a slave?
I would rather go for god status. Any firearm you take is going to impress the local humanoids when you slay some fearsome beast with a bolt of thunder.
Then the question becomes whether Neanderthal hootie is acceptable. (Assuming you didn't get to bring your mate.)

"I wonder about that...From reading the journals...I know that Lewis was very impressed with his air rifle...but we only have his word that the tribes we also impressed with it."
Why wouldn't they be impressed? Here was gun that would be the ballistic equivalent of a suppressed .45 cal autoloading carbine today. They undoubtedly had no idea what the magazine capacity was but here was a repeater that didn't make noise or a cloud of smoke. The fact that the locals didn't kill them and take their stuff is probably good evidence that they were indeed impressed.
 
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EHJ

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"Of course, would likely be a slave. At least initially."

Why would you be a slave?
I would rather go for god status. Any firearm you take is going to impress the local humanoids when you slay some fearsome beast with a bolt of thunder.
Then the question becomes whether Neanderthal hootie is acceptable. (Assuming you didn't get to bring your mate.)
That's what I'm sayin'. :rolleyes:
 

OldBroad44

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"Of course, would likely be a slave. At least initially."

Why would you be a slave?
I would rather go for god status. Any firearm you take is going to impress the local humanoids when you slay some fearsome beast with a bolt of thunder.
Then the question becomes whether Neanderthal hootie is acceptable. (Assuming you didn't get to bring your mate.)
im just guessing Most tribes in that era probably killed any invading single strangers or made them slaves. Not Gods unless you could do something godlike. Such as appear to be a fusion of human and animal since they had no horses. And made from metal since they were wearing armor. Having a piece of technology they don't have helps but doesn't get you treated like a god. If a UFO landed we would figure they had some better Tec than us, not that they were gods.

God status probably would usually get you killed, as it requires the chief and medicine man and everyone else powerful losing their status. The Aztec situation was the exception, not the normal reaction. They were also expecting the return of a god, A myth other tribes didn't have. how a stranger was received probably depended a lot on the relationships among local tribes. And on having gifts for Chiefs and trade goods.

There were no Neanderthals in the Americas. Just fellow modern humans.
 
Something like a Portaboat or folding canoe/kayak?

If you can move it thru a portal under your own power, then acceptable.

Reasonable!

Am still thinking about what firearms would be worthwhile as well. Calibers we have:

12g
.308
Edit 4/19: forgot about .300 AAC/BLK...I'd insert a SBR/Pistol in bellow instead of the Marlin.
7.62x39
.44mag
.223/5.56
5.45X39
5.7
9mm
.380
.25
.22lr

=====

I'd rule out 12g. Doesn't seem worthwhile IMO, given cartridge weight/size.
.308 has merit. What to bring though, something for distance or a brush/scout rifle? Hmmm.
7.62x39? Maybe. Was ringing gongs at 200m yesterday with an AK pistol using iron sights.
.44mag. Certainly has merit! Maybe SBR the Marlin lever action & a scout scope. Solid cast heavies.
.223/5.56/5.45. Sounds good initially, but not familiar enough if heavier/better projectiles than ball would have merit (62gr soft points, heavier open tips etc..) - maybe??
5.7? Hmmm. Low weight & high capacity. Easier to follow up shoot. Would seem reasonable as the PDW, as intended. In this case, to "ALWAYS" have on you (even a trip to the latrine). SBR PS90 over 5.7, I'd think.-see sidearm bellow-

Sidearm: 9mm. Solid copper/polymer projectiles, low weight/high velocity. Dunno if the 65gr types are still in production or not. However, if they are, would seem reasonable to take for weight saving & bone/tissue damage advantage. No/miniscule concern of overpenetration & harming innocents.

.380? Not familiar enough if solids, or solid/polymer projectiles would be worthwhile. Seems less likely.

.25. Nope.
.22lr, as a sidearm, nope.

.22lr rifle? Certainly has merit, and I'd almost be silly to not take one.

Flint rifle, casting gear? Would seem extremely reasonable to take, for folks familiar with such. I'm not. Maybe if time allowed to become familiar before said "trip" & to learn how to make powder/mine for lead etc..

Suppressed? If so, what? All. some? None? Seems extremely reasonable, if simply to maintain hearing. However, would normal gunshots help dissuade a predator(s) whom are unfamiliar with such sounds if you miss/miss vitals?

Modern bow/crossbow? Yup. Even though I'm not familiar. I'd learn, even if not before the "trip". No idea here on what would be reasonable though (weight, ease of use, care of, longevity etc). Can modern heads be modified for use with self made shafts?? I'd think one could bring along a whole bunch of flat heads without the screw on bit, if so, for minimal weight.
 
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