Hybrid owners, is this true?

[mjbskwim]

I tell people to look at diesels. When people tell me "but diesel costs more", I tell them to do the math. I sold a gas VW Golf and got a diesel Golf. My recorded mpgs were 27 for the gasser and 45 for the diesel. That's over a 60% mpg increase. If gas is $3.90, I would have to pay over $6.50 per gallon before I see no savings. (diesel rant)

I did the math on my trucks and basically,they raised the price of diesel so it costs as much to drive a diesel truck as it does a gas truck (pick up size).Within a few cents.

Diesel cars get so much better MPG that it is cost effective.And actually diesel exhaust is a little better than gas exhaust.Not quite as carcinogenic.Using less fuel would also help these figures.
Plus a diesel engine will outlast most others by a long shot.Fuel of choice over in europe I have heard.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I guess you've never heard of the Chevy Volt or the Nissan Leaf? These are first generation all electric mass production cars- they'll only get better and cheaper from here...

2012 Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Chevrolet

http://www.niss****a.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/index

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid

I guess our respective definitions of "rock solid" differ a lot.
I don't consider less than 50 miles of range while running lights, wipers and the heater (nah, we NEVER do that in the northwest) to be a "rock solid" vehicle.

Maybe you do.

But I'm not really a "less is more" kind of a person.

Furthermore, I just love it when greenies champion a car that requires hazmat for disposal of it's power source.
Or, I see a Nissan Leaf with a "save our wild salmon" bumper sticker on it.

Then there's the FACT that over 40% of them are coal powered.
Then there's the FACT that 20% of them are powered by Natural Gas.

Which is stupid, because if you designed them to run on Natural Gas instead of NG powered electricity, that you would increase the range, make heat for the heater as a by-product of the propulsion, and they could still be fueled at home.

Nice try though.

 

[bikejunkie]

The difference to me is that while the cost of mileage improvements with more expensive fuel (diesel) may be very close to gas- the diesel in a truck has FAR superior towing/load hauling characteristics. Now the struggle is paying an additional $8000-$10000 for the diesel motor in the first place over gas...

 

[bikejunkie]

Perhaps you should actually read about the modern full electric cars...

http://www.niss****a.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/view/12#/leaf-electric-car/theBasicsRange/index

The Volt is a Hybrid- so no range anxiety there, and while I agree the Nissan under bad circumstances at 62 miles is low- it is a first gen city car- if it's primary use was highway it would be larger with larger batteries

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I have a Prius and would not buy another one. The ride is okay but the handling is poor and the performance even worse. You can get nearly as much mileage out of a nice turbo diesel and get much better handling and performance. That is the route I will go for the next work car. In the end, the money you save in gas barely covers the extra cost of the hybrid vehicle and you don't get to drive a fun car.

 

[mjbskwim]

No actually we don't
And I doubt we EVER will. If you doubt my claim, look up how many amps it takes to make just 50 horse power at say, 24 or 48 volts.
Then try to put that in a battery with any reserve capacity at that level of output.
Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen.

There are too many wishful thinking eco-peeps that don't understand what kind of energy density a gallon of our favorite refined petroleum fuel contains. Be it gasoline or diesel.
We can make IC engines cleaner with CNG, and for now, I believe that should be our goal. We only have a few centuries worth of the stuff,
So there's no reason NOT to do it.
Unless you believe in the vilification of the people that drill holes in the ground to recover natural resources.
Converting commercial trucking alone would drop our dependence on oil a HUGE amount.

You mean as apposed to the manufacture of the batteries an the disposal?
Natural gas would be a great idea.The pumping stations and the tanks are a little problem.You have to use a heavy wall tank,such as a oxygen tank,to hold the gas as it is high pressure.
Most of Tacoma/Pierce Transit buses are NatGas.And the gas side of Puget Sound Energy,runs all their cars and trucks on Nat Gas. But they have the pumping stations.
Canada ,apparently,uses Nat Gas,or has stations at marinas,so metering it for vehicles shouldn't be a problem.
Engines last a lot longer on LPG or NatGas too.

 

[sprocket3]

I have a Prius and would not buy another one. The ride is okay but the handling is poor and the performance even worse. You can get nearly as much mileage out of a nice turbo diesel and get much better handling and performance. That is the route I will go for the next work car. In the end, the money you save in gas barely covers the extra cost of the hybrid vehicle and you don't get to drive a fun car.

I agree after driving one a lot last year. The only problem is that Jetta TDI is a VW and you know you will pay the price down the road. Don't get me wrong, I love Eurotrash. I have owned about 10 cars from that auto group. Just you pay to play with it.

 

[rufus]

I have a Prius and would not buy another one. The ride is okay but the handling is poor and the performance even worse. You can get nearly as much mileage out of a nice turbo diesel and get much better handling and performance. That is the route I will go for the next work car. In the end, the money you save in gas barely covers the extra cost of the hybrid vehicle and you don't get to drive a fun car.

An honest and rational opinion. Well said too.

 

[rufus]

Info on the EPA saving us from ourselves, again: The cost of driving is artificially high

The high concern with NOx emissions is not shared by all developed countries. While the US has reduced NOx emissions to the current limit of 0.07 grams per mile, Europe has maintained the limit of 0.29 grams per mile, producing a disparity in efficiency. Canada also allows NOx limits of .5 grams per mile, but that appears destined to change this year. European passenger cars with turbo-diesel engines get up to 70 mpg. Ford sells a mid-sized ECOnetic (went into production in 2008) in England that averages 67 mpg. Unfortunately, this car is illegal in the US.

The Ford ECOnectic uses a 1.6-liter Duratorq TDCi turbodiesel engine that generates 105hp. Thanks to the use of the turbodiesel engine, low rolling resistance tires, revised final drive ratio, and Active Grille Shutter, Ford says that the ECOnetic is good for 80 mpg on the European Cycle -- that translates to roughly 67 mpg (combined) using EPA calculations.

For comparison, the US version of the Ford Focus is rated at 28 mpg city and 40 mpg highway (34 mpg combined) in its most fuel efficient trim. This equates to half the efficiency rating for a similarly sized vehicle.

Even Canada has allowed the sale of the 70 mpg Smart turbo-diesel, but not the US.

Both Audi and BMW have introduced a US version of the turbo-diesel in their high end vehicles. But in order to sell in the US, the NOx must be reduced. The diesels require a high pressure injection system and post-exhaust treatment systems. As a result, the diesel engine is offered at a $1500 premium over the gasoline engine. And the engine efficiency isn’t nearly as good as the European counterpart (39 mpg vs. 56 mpg). At 20,000 miles per year, the payback of taking theUS version of the turbo-diesel over the gas engine is 2 years with fuel savings.

US automobile manufacturers have complained that they are fined by the government for failing to hit the fuel efficiency requirements, but then the government sets up road blocks for the manufacturers to insure that they don’t hit the requirements.
Today upwards of 95 percent of passenger cars and light trucks on American roads are gas-powered. In Europe, the trend is reversed. A majority of the passenger vehicles are diesel. And the average European light-duty vehicle fuel efficiency is roughly twice that of the US.
The EPA has recently reinforced its opposition to diesel exhaust.

Thanks EPA.

 

[bikejunkie]

Thanks for the article Rufus. The other problem with our cars is the NHTSA clinging to offset crash standards that in real world crashes nearly never apply forcing manufacturers to build cars heavier and heavier in the name of safety...

 

[CharonPDX]

Actually spotted a Unicorn at work the other day. (A Prius with an NRA sticker on the back window) Imagine my shock!

Mine has a Second Amendment Foundation sticker.

 

[rufus]

Mine has a Second Amendment Foundation sticker.

That's almost like a Corvair with a Ralph Nader for President bumper sticker.

 

[VW_Factor]

Info on the EPA saving us from ourselves, again: The cost of driving is artificially high

Thanks EPA.

I've hated this for some time. Its not a complicated formula to understand. Burn much less to travel the same distances, ultimately is better than "burning twice as much but cleaner".

Thanks government. :/

 

[MinnesotaORnewbie]

charonpdx > The U.S. imports 50% of our oil from here in the west, Canada, and elsewhere in the North, South, and Central America, those darn islamotowelheads only send us about 16% of our yearly oil imports.
The only problem I have with these more and more so called hybrids, example the Escape hybrid, they still get bubblegum for gas mileage, the Escape got horrible gas mileage as it is; we rented one for a week. And then the Hybrid I thought claimed what 21, 22 miles per gallon. To me, that is stupid. Seems like car companies, instead of creating better gas mileage vehicles, are now throwing out numbers in advertising and since they didn't before, expect us to believe that these are great numbers. Spending thousands more, on top of a overpriced small SUV for a hybrid Escape, that only gets 21 MPG is not a good deal to me. Notice how all the new trucks are stating 20 or 21, maybe 22 MPG for a new pick up. Well that is better than 15, what I'm getting on a 6 year old truck, but I'll pay the inflated price for a new pick up when they get 30, and I truly believe they can make it happen now, but instead, marketing will delay this as long as they can so they can sell more bubblegumty models for years to come until they are forced to sell a model with good gas mileage. just another example of the car industry tied with oil companies, and all the other people together making a lot of money at our expense.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Perhaps you should actually read about the modern full electric cars...

Perhaps you should stand within view of an electrical dyno and see just how much electricity a 100hp IC engine can make.
Then you will realize there just isn't any way to pack that much energy into a battery.
Or are you holding out for a flux capacitor?
Take ALL the power that your battery can store, and factor in the charge time to get it in there.
Then realize, that you can put more BTU's of energy in your diesel tank in roughly 10 seconds.
Those are the facts.

Look, if you want to power tiny cars around a city, with people making 20 mile round trips per day, then fine. Go for it.
But in real-world examples of cars the way the bulk of Americans use them, then battery powered electric cars won't get the job done.
The laws of physics are against you.
And you still haven't addressed the fact that almost 50% of them are currently powered by coal, which is second only to oil on the greenie's hate list.

 

[rufus]

But it's the thought that counts!

 

[bikejunkie]

Clearly you misunderstand my position- and I am an ASE certified Master Automobile Technician, so it's not like I'm some dummy about how engines operate and what makes one more efficient than another. I'm saying hybrids and electric cars are a first step- not the only step. If it was up to me, the US would greatly expand nuclear power to wean off of coal, but the sheeple are terrified of nuclear power and the greenies hate it more than coal. I wish the US had the same standards for emissions as the EU so we would see more diesel. I also believe it's a matter of time until infrastructure exists to make hydrogen fuel cells like that of the Honda Clarity- who's only tailpipe emission is pure water the propulsion method of choice for passenger cars. As technology sits now, there is no complete answer that could replace the ICE, however there are many exciting advances in electrics and cars like the Volt and Leaf are encouraging. For the record, I am super happy that 2 weeks ago I talked a friend out of buying a Prius, because it just didn't get better enough fuel economy to offset its price- and they suck to drive. She instead bought a 4cyl Subaru and couldn't be happier.

Also it is not accurate to refer to a "10 hp motor" or a "15 hp motor", because horsepower will vary with volts and amps, and peak horsepower will be much higher than the continuous rating. For instance the hybrid drive system on a Honda Civic Hybrid runs at 144 volts. It is also confusing to compare electric motors to gas engines, since electric motors are given a continuous rating under load, and gas engines are rated at their peak horsepower unloaded. Also, while an ICE produces horsepower and torque over a curve, electric motors produce nearly 100% torque at all speeds. Apples and oranges really

 

[Jamie6.5]

But it's the thought that counts!

Well, as long as they are politically correct thought.
Those of your own making may/may not be allowed.

You must clear them with the thought police first.

 

[CharonPDX]

But my gasoline SUV will always burn gasoline. I could change the 'source' of my EVs electricity by picking my utility's "green" package. Or my utility could gradually convert to cleaner sources with no input from me whatsoever.

The "current average electric source makes EVs dirty" argument is invalid. Not to mention that EVs are significantly more efficient at turning stored electricity into rotational power than a combustion engine. There have been a few studies showing that the old Ford Ranger EV pickup, with 100% "dirty coal" powered electricity, is still 'cleaner' for the environment than a Prius.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Also it is not accurate to refer to a "10 hp motor" or a "15 hp motor", because horsepower will vary with volts and amps, and peak horsepower will be much higher than the continuous rating. For instance the hybrid drive system on a Honda Civic Hybrid runs at 144 volts. It is also confusing to compare electric motors to gas engines, since electric motors are given a continuous rating under load, and gas engines are rated at their peak horsepower unloaded.

Torque is force, plain and simple. And DC motors are capable of making lots of it!
Horsepower on the other hand is an arbitrary measurement of theoretical work done when measured over time.
And it must be measured under load to be valid. An unloaded "measurement" would be nothing more than a theoretical value based on a formula.
To really appreciate the power of fuels and engines, use the KW rating that the Japanese, and most engineers use.
Then it becomes easy to make the comparo between an IC eingine, and a DC motor, and the power the battery source must contain to compete with the engine.

I would never say you can't make power/force with an electric motor.
But I will tell you that a battery capable of keeping that motor running, at even 50% capacity, over the same range as your average IC powered vehicle, would be so huge, that the vehicle would have trouble moving under it's own power.