Howdy from a gun owning lefty

[stanaxe]

Hi all,
I'm Stan, I live in Skagit County, WA. I'm an engineer, reasonably well educated, and definitely interested in politics, history, philosophy, and the downward direction I see our country heading.
As my intro title implies, I probably have a different perspective on what/who are the causes of that decline than most folks on this forum...(at least from what my lurking collects).

I'm not a big gun collector, I only have what I think is/will be adequate for home defense, hunting, and realistic (not zombie end-of-the world) disaster situations.
I do enjoy improving my firearm skills, but I actually prefer my archery and hack riding more. I tend to see my firearms more as tools than as a hobby.

I've been lurking here for a while, didn't think I had much to contribute.

I guess what prompted me to finally post is a push survey I got from the NRA, which has really gotten me P.O.d, and needing to vent to total strangers.

Of course, the available poll answers are only simplistic yes/no. The first question asks if you think the 2nd amendment is just as important as the other constitutional rights.

My first impulse was to say "of course it is". But on reflection, I realized I don't believe that, and the question is really manipulative.

In fact, I think the second is only a tool, among other tools, to ensure that the really important individual rights amendments (like the 1st, 4th, 5th) can be defended.

As a tool, it cannot be given equal importance to the amendments that might need that tool to be used. Just like I can't assume a box wrench is any more important than a squirt of Loctite to keep a bolt tight on my bike. Either may be appropriate. The important thing is keeping the bolt tight! I wouldn't want to lose that box wrench, I'd fight to keep it (its probably one I inherited it from my Dad), but if worse came to worse, it would never be my only way to get that bolt tight.

It seems to me that push polls like this are basically dishonest, and so by extension, organizations that use them exhibit some degree of dishonesty as well. I find it difficult to trust the goals of a group that resorts to such methods.

OK, I now feel properly vented. Thanks for listening (a wild assumption here), and I may pop in periodically, especially if I have questions like: How do I get my R92 to be less picky with the .357 JHPs I feed it?

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[VW_Factor]

I've never liked those "questioniares" the NRA sends out. I cannot answer them adequately, much as the same as you felt about them.

I think what this man has, maybe is what a lot of America lacks these days. Critical thinking skills.

Today I was just thinking that the NRA profits off supporters of the second amendment (and other organizations) by taking advantage of our feelings towards keeping our rights.. Always asking for money, donations, etc.. I know that (I hope) a lot of it goes towards the good fight. But again, why all the junk mail and other crap you peddle? How much of my money did you waste on that bubblegum? My membership and donation barely covered postage for a couple hundred junk letters sent.

Yeah. thats my little rant. Good on ya sir.

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Hi, Stan, welcome to the site.

It seems to me that push polls like this are basically dishonest, and so by extension, organizations that use them exhibit some degree of dishonesty as well. I find it difficult to trust the goals of a group that resorts to such methods.

I'm glad to see that for a self-styled lefty that you finally noticing that (among others) the main stream media, your local hospital, and your local, state and federal governments are dishonest and untrustworthy. It's your first step on your way to the cure. Seriously, just about every organization that engages in politics on any level uses these types of polls, and you shouldn't trust any of them, even if you think they're on your side.

 

[stanaxe]

Hi, Stan, welcome to the site.



I'm glad to see that for a self-styled lefty that you finally noticing that (among others) the main stream media, your local hospital, and your local, state and federal governments are dishonest and untrustworthy. It's your first step on your way to the cure. Seriously, just about every organization that engages in politics on any level uses these types of polls, and you shouldn't trust any of them, even if you think they're on your side.

Hi Joe,
Is there any better way to be styled than by yourself? I've been doing that for years! Better than being styled by the likes of Beck, Palin, and Bachman, and claims of "death panels"!:nuts:

I completely agree that the system is broken...I've believed that for years, it's not something I just noticed. Like I said, I just probably disagree with you as to who are the root villains and where the fixes need to be done.

Where the vocal right sees a welfare state, I see corporate welfare. Where the right sees creeping "socialism", I see a plutocracy getting more and more entrenched. Whereas the right calls for less and less government, I call for a government that actually acts like as a feedback control mechanism. In other words, like a governor, minimizing the harm that the worst abuses of unfettered capitalist greed has and continues to cause. Where the right sees "American Exceptionalism" as an established fact, I see a lot of lip service and little fact to back it up.

But, an intro is not where I would really want to discuss this stuff. I mainly wanted to just say , and get an immediate gripe of my chest.

 

[cash$$cow]

I am a lefty so I speak the language but what is hack riding???

 

[stanaxe]

My hack:

 

[deadeye]

You may want to look into the affiliate site for venting political views.

link
http://www.northwestliberty.com/

 

[Siglvr]

Welcome to the forum Stan! I suspect that most of us here feel not much differently than you do about many of those issues. It is our shared love for what our country faults are, what the countries good is, and what our country can be, that starts most of these deep arguments. Certainly it's these rancorous disagreements that often lead to a best course of action often emerging, so towards that end, all discussions bringing rational points (decisive or not) to the conversation are a good thing.

For myself, I joined the NRA so as to show my support and have no regrets. I've noticed that the ACLU doesn't see the 2nd amendment like you and I do. I see it as the tool that allows the others to exist. I know the ACLU is doing good work, and I'm glad they exist, despite the things I see them do that seem very dumb. Same applies to the NRA.

Regards and welcome!

 

[MikeE]

Greetings from another lefty. Good post, cool pic, but what's an R92 (being of the Glock orientation personally)? My gripe with NRA was around the Obama election and the great gun/ammo scare. Not about their political position, although I disagreed. It just seemed they were fanning the hysteria that resulted in skyrocketing gun sales and ammo costs. Can't blame all that on the NRA but everywhere I looked, there were those little stickers that had all the things Obama was supposed to be doing to your guns - while the shelves emptied.

 

[stanaxe]

R92 is a Rossi 1892 lever action clone. Comes in a range of configurations. Mine's a round barrel 20" in .357. I got it recently, and have not yet done any mods, except to change the sights to a rear bulls-eye and a front red optic fiber.

 

[MikeE]

Very Cool. I have a Marlin 1894c - I put a 1.5x4 scope Leupold. I love that gun.

 

[Joe Link]

Welcome!

 

[hapuna]

Welcome, Always good to see another person from WA!!!!

 

[olydemon]

Great thread! Welcome.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I'm not a big gun collector, I only have what I think is/will be adequate for home defense, hunting, and realistic (not zombie end-of-the world) disaster situations.

That is what is wrong with you "lefties." You severely underestimate the zombie threat.

 

[stanaxe]

Oh, we lefties think the zombies are already here.
Think of Heston's "from my cold dead hands" as a dare from someone who was already secretly mostly dead for 8 months .

 

[CarlMc]

Welcome!
As a conservative... Well anyway, I look forward to thoughtful discussion from the other side on political topics as they relate to the 2A.

A key philosophy of our entire republic is the premise that private property is sacred. That said, private property is, practically speaking, yours only as long as you can defend it. That's not so easy to understand nowadays when the police does most of the defending of private property, and we usually take that for granted.
I feel that way about the rest of the rights granted by Our Creator and merely codified by the constitution. None of them mean anything if we can't defend them, so how you rank them in importance depends mostly on your own personal priorities, so in a grand summary, they are equally important, and each requires the other to maintain the rest. They're all links in the chain.
Yeah, it gets a little annoying with some of the junk that the NRA sends out, but I understand why. Most organizations that lobby on behalf of their members have to have a lot of money to do that important work. Many do it by putting their members on mailing lists, fund drives poorly disguised as push polls, and other means of bringing in money to fund their initiatives. It's just the price of doing business, I suppose. I'm not yet old enough to be a member of the AARP, and have no plans to do so, but the AARP spawns an incredible amount of mailings, and I suspect is one of the worst of its kind. Insurance is a great money maker for them, so you'll always see life insurance of many kinds for sale.

 

[CavVet]

A lot of people cant get past step one correctly in understanding the role of the BOR. They are clearly not limits on the group repeatedly identified, "The people", nor are the awards to same, but are clearly identified in the preamble as restraints on the government, restraints we have tolerated and allowed the wanton erosion of.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

After one gets past that part properly, and moves to the above question of importance, I would ask three questions....

1) How many of the amendments in the BOR were givent the clear specific caveat of "shall not be infringed"?

2) Which of the BOR would be the biggest direct threat to the government they are specifically designed to contain?

3) At 0300 when the bubblegum is hitting the fan, which right would you prefer to have the ability to exercise?

As for the moniker "gun owning lefty", Ive personally known one of "them". He was actually well versed in the M1 Garand, a former High Power Champ, but as liberal as liberal could get. I asked him flat out how he could enjoy firearms, and cherish the Second but vote for those who would ban them in a second if possible. He could never answer that, I could never understand it.

 

[stanaxe]

Welcome!
As a conservative... Well anyway, I look forward to thoughtful discussion from the other side on political topics as they relate to the 2A.

A key philosophy of our entire republic is the premise that private property is sacred. That said, private property is, practically speaking, yours only as long as you can defend it. That's not so easy to understand nowadays when the police does most of the defending of private property, and we usually take that for granted.
I feel that way about the rest of the rights granted by Our Creator and merely codified by the constitution. None of them mean anything if we can't defend them, so how you rank them in importance depends mostly on your own personal priorities, so in a grand summary, they are equally important, and each requires the other to maintain the rest. They're all links in the chain.
Yeah, it gets a little annoying with some of the junk that the NRA sends out, but I understand why. Most organizations that lobby on behalf of their members have to have a lot of money to do that important work. Many do it by putting their members on mailing lists, fund drives poorly disguised as push polls, and other means of bringing in money to fund their initiatives. It's just the price of doing business, I suppose. I'm not yet old enough to be a member of the AARP, and have no plans to do so, but the AARP spawns an incredible amount of mailings, and I suspect is one of the worst of its kind. Insurance is a great money maker for them, so you'll always see life insurance of many kinds for sale.

I want to take issue with a couple or 3 of your comments:
1. "A key philosophy of our entire republic is the premise that private property is sacred." Assuming "sacred" is meant in the same sense as an oath being sacred, unchangeable, or untouchable, even the 5thA acknowledges there may be times that the greater public good outweighs an individual's right to a hold or use piece of property. This is NOT to say that you MAY need to use a firearm to defend against some cattle rustler. And in that case, the firearm is only one of very likely many ways you can creatively defend against theft. And of course, what may be considered personal property has shifted over the years...was even a cause of the Civil War. So, "private property" is neither sacred nor is the right to use it as you wish unlimited.

2. "I feel that way about the rest of the rights granted by Our Creator and merely codified by the constitution." This makes the assumption that there is an existing Creator capable of granting full rights to some people, and limited (if any) rights to others. Without getting into a religious debate, I think that you first need to demonstrate the existence of this Creator before a skeptic like me can begin to scrutinize what rights it has granted.

3. "...so in a grand summary, they are equally important, and each requires the other to maintain the rest. They're all links in the chain". I completely agree that if you can't defend your rights...as you understand them (by violence if necessary, by persuasion if practical) , you WILL lose them. And, I agree that a gun can be one of those tools you use in the defense of your most fundamental rights. I don't agree that all the amendments are links in a single line chain. It seems to me that there are always multiple ways to solve a given problem, or to defend a given right.

So, I don't dispute the wisdom of having the 2nd, I just don't like the way the NRA tries to manipulate that wisdom to (what I suspect are) its own purposes. I also won't try to defend the similar tactics used by AARP or the ACLU. "Two wrongs don't make a right." However, I'll reserve my complaints about their tactics to forums where age-related or 1st amendment issues are the primary interest.

 

[stanaxe]

As for the moniker "gun owning lefty", Ive personally known one of "them". He was actually well versed in the M1 Garand, a former High Power Champ, but as liberal as liberal could get. I asked him flat out how he could enjoy firearms, and cherish the Second but vote for those who would ban them in a second if possible. He could never answer that, I could never understand it.

Maybe that guy would have voted to abolish the 2nd. If he did and couldn't explain it, he's as dumb as someone who believed in "death panel" claims.

I suggest you don't assume that being left wing means that I will roll over and play dead if attacked. It is, however, possible that I might decide the enemy to fight is not the same enemy you think is out there.

I also hope you do not assume any criticism of the NRA is somehow an attack on the 2nd.

Boy, this thread sure has drifted a bit from me introducing myself and bubbleguming about an NRA push poll, hasn't it?