how would you arm a medium group for defense? (SHTF hypothetical)

[smurf hunter]

I've read tons, both this forum and other places discussing the best weaponry for personal/family protection under all sorts of scenarios. The debate continues...

Beyond that - what if you had to "arm" a small neighborhood/village/whatever of people to form a co-operative security force following some disaster situation?

I'll qualify some assumptions to speed along the thread:

0) There are up to two dozen able bodied adults involved.

1) While not strangers, you have at least a casual relationship with these people. You know where they live(d) work(ed), their families, etc.

2) Some of these people may have ZERO firearms experience.

3) You'd have to acquire and store weapons and ammo prior to SHTF - so money and other resources are a consideration (Are you really going to buy 20+ AR-15 w/ ACOG plus appropriate amounts of .223 rounds?). While even buying "cheap" stuff would be a considerable cost given the quantity, I won't provide a budget to keep the conversation open.

Aside from various social/psychological concerns that may arise, there seem to be a number of logistical concerns. Standardizing on ammo seems obvious, but perhaps a standard rifle platform would allow cannibalizing for parts. I also imagine we'd need to balance low cost with ease of use. For example, I could pickup a batch of old Russian Mosins for under $100 each, with fairly cheap ammo. But how easily/quickly could my neighbors wife be trained to use it in a fight? On the other hand, maybe issuing Ruger 10/22s would make more sense. Even without combat level stopping power, I imagine there's a greater chance of people hitting their targets and the rate of fire might be an advantage over bolt-action with a group of like armed folks.

I'm assuming the primary mission of this neighborhood militia would be to drive off would be looters and other raiding parties. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.

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[sillyrabbit]

First,
Most of us associate with 'others' that hold our beliefs and thinking (firearms and some kind of preparedness?)...... And they would be inside my group of "neighbors, family and friends, that being said...,

Second,
We all have more than one firearm (possibly many more?) Possibly an AR (or 2?), Ak (or 2?) Hunting rifles of various sizes and calibers? (or 2?) .22's or equivalents? Then there are the Shotguns and sidearms (how many of those have you got?).

Third,
All my friends have some sort of ammo supplies for each of there possessions and many have reloading capabilities and supplies.
When we add these all up, we may (or may not I guess) have a substantial little 'arsenal'. Therefore the need to acquire "more" for this scenario is less problematic.

Fourth,
Inventory of our (mutual) 'resources" including food, water, firearms, ammo, defensive products and capabilities and procedures, perimeters and who we can count on.

Fifth,
Assessing and agreeing on strengths, knowledge, abilities and responsibilities for all participating and actions we will and will not take or accept.

Sixth,
TRAINING for all who can and will participate in our mutual defense.

From there.......... it all begins

 

[MountainBear]

And if all of the above fails, learn from Rambo in First Blood. Start with a rock and trade your way up to an M60.

 

[Silver Fox]

Interesting topic. May I recommend the following that somebody I heard a friend of a cousins brother, twice removed step sister do?

Everybody 16 and above, AK-47 type rifle. Adults 21 and above are recommended a G19. Ever family provides a Hunting rifle (.30-06's are plentiful along with ammo and take both deer and elk), a .22 rifle and 12 gauge recommended a model with two barrels, one for gathering food the other for "hiking". From what I understand this group of people are only standardizing the AK and G19. The .30-06, .22 and 12 gauge are only required standard by caliber.

I am not going to debate somebody else's decision. It works for them for cost, efficiency, durability, ease of maintenance, ease of training for proficiency, spare parts, cost and availability of ammo, magazines and accessories.

SF-

 

[elsullo]

For small people and those averse to recoil, that Ruger 10/22 with a bunch of reliable 25 round magazines is a sound, inexpensive idea. Even kids could be a force with these. The stainless/polymer stock models appear at Bimart sales around $220.00 brand new. LOTS of used ones much cheaper.

For larger people who can tolerate recoil, the Marlin 336 lever-action in .30-30 is very easy to learn and master for longer range and harder hits through barriers, especially with the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo for extended distance. These can be found for around $325.00 new or used.

Both of these need little maintainance and are easy to use for beginners. I suspect few mobs of goblins would want to advance upon all of the noise and fire that these could create..............................elsullo

 

[Cougfan2]

At least one person should have body armor with at least two steel plates in the back for catching multiple hits from a .338 Lapua while he shields his partner who is assembling the .300 Win Mag Handi-Rifle.

 

[greydog111]

buddy, you have to make a decision to either be a sheep or a sheepdog. Most neighbors will turn on you when the excrement impacts the ventilator.
To arm the terminally unarmed citizen without much training is like giving a 3 year old the keys to your lambo. It won't turn out well.
This is why the Marines take up to three weeks to make a basic rifleman. The longest firearms training of all the branches of service.
Decide to look like an atelope heading for the horizon when poo poo gets too deep. Greydog.

 

[Cougfan2]

buddy, you have to make a decision to either be a sheep or a sheepdog. Most neighbors will turn on you when the excrement impacts the ventilator.
To arm the terminally unarmed citizen without much training is like giving a 3 year old the keys to your lambo. It won't turn out well.
This is why the Marines take up to three weeks to make a basic rifleman. The longest firearms training of all the branches of service.
Decide to look like an atelope heading for the horizon when poo poo gets too deep. Greydog.

Yeah, arming people with little to no firearms is a sure way to give more weapons to your enemy. It's not so much the lack of training I would worry about. I would worry about their conviction to engage in the battle. There's lots of heroes until the SHTF.

 

[smurf hunter]

Yeah, arming people with little to no firearms is a sure way to give more weapons to your enemy. It's not so much the lack of training I would worry about. I would worry about their conviction to engage in the battle. There's lots of heroes until the SHTF.

First of all - point well taken about arming the unarmed. My thinking was more of a "long term" post-apocalyptic scenario where a group of people decided to cooperate. It's easy enough to say you will turn away neighbors in need, but I'm not so sure I could turn away people - people I know or work with, if they were starving or otherwise might not survive without my intervention.

I'd rather take some risk bartering .22LR ammo for goats milk than hide in a bunker for 5 years with just my immediate family.

All of this brings up a curious thought: Many of us are "like minded", and in a SHTF scenario would benefit from various levels of cooperation. However, since most survival groups seem intent on isolation from others, how could we find each other, and how could we possibly know who's trust worthy?

Just seems a big shame that we couldn't leverage our combined strengths - but perhaps the risk is too great?

 

[Spray-n-pray]

At least one person should have body armor with at least two steel plates in the back for catching multiple hits from a .338 Lapua while he shields his partner who is assembling the .300 Win Mag Handi-Rifle.

Only if you have mall ninja skills, though (climbing walls, etc.). At that point, the Asian gang members can have the Mortal Kombat game for all I care.

 

[LogicBomb]

buy everyone in the world a mosin

 

[Wheeler44]

You can find all manner of folks that've mustered, pooled resource, extended a hand to their neighbor and worked with their neighbors to conquer adversity.....In the history books.....

There are a lot of folks like that still today......Most just haven't been tested yet is all.........

Normal Rockwell used to like to paint that guy or gal.....

W44

 

[MountainBear]

Use everybody's strengths. Everyone has areas that they excel in. Some people are riflemen, some are not. Some people are good at scavenging, some good at farming, some good at engineering, medicine, etc. Go with that. Arm the people who are capable of handling themselves, and leave those that aren't in the rear with the gear, so to speak.
Unfortunately, this is not the late 1700's anymore. The militia still consists of every able bodied man, but they aren't all trained up to handle firearms. For some people, its not longer a necessity. I don't understand it, but its the truth.

 

[Correctthought]

I've read tons, both this forum and other places discussing the best weaponry for personal/family protection under all sorts of scenarios. The debate continues...

Beyond that - what if you had to "arm" a small neighborhood/village/whatever of people to form a co-operative security force following some disaster situation?

I'll qualify some assumptions to speed along the thread:

0) There are up to two dozen able bodied adults involved.

1) While not strangers, you have at least a casual relationship with these people. You know where they live(d) work(ed), their families, etc.

2) Some of these people may have ZERO firearms experience.

3) You'd have to acquire and store weapons and ammo prior to SHTF - so money and other resources are a consideration (Are you really going to buy 20+ AR-15 w/ ACOG plus appropriate amounts of .223 rounds?). While even buying "cheap" stuff would be a considerable cost given the quantity, I won't provide a budget to keep the conversation open.

Aside from various social/psychological concerns that may arise, there seem to be a number of logistical concerns. Standardizing on ammo seems obvious, but perhaps a standard rifle platform would allow cannibalizing for parts. I also imagine we'd need to balance low cost with ease of use. For example, I could pickup a batch of old Russian Mosins for under $100 each, with fairly cheap ammo. But how easily/quickly could my neighbors wife be trained to use it in a fight? On the other hand, maybe issuing Ruger 10/22s would make more sense. Even without combat level stopping power, I imagine there's a greater chance of people hitting their targets and the rate of fire might be an advantage over bolt-action with a group of like armed folks.

I'm assuming the primary mission of this neighborhood militia would be to drive off would be looters and other raiding parties. Curious to hear people's opinions on this.

Nagants with 1000 rounds a piece.....(defence) 2 to 4 .22's with 1000's for training and small game.

Alternatively, K98's, but more pricey I think.

Look for surplus side arm specials... and get a few with ammo.

Is it as sexy as getting everyone a spray and pray semi? No, but I think a semi organized group with bolt guns on home turf would be effective against most comers.

Bottom line, 20 Nagants @ 130$ = 2600 $

Ammo.... too lazy to look up, but cheap.

Compare to say and AR 800 + M1A 1400 = 2200 $ and you have yet to buy mags.

The best idea: a group would be one where the members took some responsibility and saw to their armaments themselves.

Mind you, having a group you can trust at that size in place puts you ahead of most people.

My 2 cents and I have no particular experience that makes me an expert in anything I opined about.

 

[JUSTIficatioN]

.22's (whether a pistol or rifle) for the little ones ( personaly I wouldn't arm a child under 13). for the older, mil surp rifles with mil surp ammo. +1 for Mosin's.

 

[Cougfan2]

Use everybody's strengths. Everyone has areas that they excel in. Some people are riflemen, some are not. Some people are good at scavenging, some good at farming, some good at engineering, medicine, etc. Go with that. Arm the people who are capable of handling themselves, and leave those that aren't in the rear with the gear, so to speak.
Unfortunately, this is not the late 1700's anymore. The militia still consists of every able bodied man, but they aren't all trained up to handle firearms. For some people, its not longer a necessity. I don't understand it, but its the truth.

Best response I've seen so far.

 

[Wheeler44]

Maybe a good trainer should be in the "arsenal"... a good .22 maybe....One of my Grampas used to pay a bounty on muskrat and skunk that burrowed in the irrigation ditch banks....It seemed a good way to teach a young man to shoot well...Insert smiley face here...

Encourage others to learn to shoot?...I know how hard that is....I'm an Appleseeder....Still, if we keep on, we'll help our neighbors out....Maybe I'll give rifle lessons and they'll dig latrines...Hmmm...I'll have to give that a ponder.....

W44

ETA: Mosins are good....I like the SKS (bone stock except a trigger job and peep sights) for cheap ammo and ease of maintenance...

I've never been good at keeping to one cartridge.....I find to many of them interesting

 

[Cougfan2]

I have some neighbors that I would volunteer for latrine digging duty.

 

[Correctthought]

I have some neighbors that I would volunteer for latrine digging duty.

There are two types of people in this world, those with guns and those that dig.

Lol, hopefully not to obscure movie reference.

 

[Cougfan2]

There are two types of people in this world, those with guns and those that dig.

Lol, hopefully not to obscure movie reference.

Red Dawn?