How To Set Up A Trust For NFA

[Gunner3456]

Lawyers should not give advice outside of the scope of their practice.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1041es.pdf

Income distributions (money you get in your hands) from trusts are taxed at the beneficiaries rates. The tax rates on trust (held in the trust) income ranges from 15-35 percent. The worksheet and tax tables appear on page 5.

The beneficiaries are the heirs. Right now in our joint living trust, income is taxed at our rate, as part of our tax return. We are the grantors and the trustees (my wife and I are.) Our kids are the beneficiaries (heirs) and get no income from the trust yet.

 

[miloy001]

Very useful info. I have two questions regarding the trust method:
1. When taking the Declaration of Trust to my bank and have it notarized, just my signature required? Is successor trustee's signature also required?
2. Can I prepare the trust document without a alternate successor?

Thanks,

 

[wired]

Very useful info. I have two questions regarding the trust method:
1. When taking the Declaration of Trust to my bank and have it notarized, just my signature required? Is successor trustee's signature also required?
2. Can I prepare the trust document without a alternate successor?

Thanks,

First off good luck getting your bank to notarize a trust they didnt draft.Banks are weird about trusts sometimes and most wont notarize a trust their legal dept didnt put together. Kinkos or the UPS store are your best bet for a notary on a self produced trust. When they notarize your signature all they are doing is verifying you signed it. What is in the text is irrelevent so no, you do not need the successor.

2. You fill out the trust according to your states requirements. If your state says you need and alternate , you need an alternate. Quicken willmaker will walk you through the whole thing and give you a valid enough for the ATF trust. Don't try and second guess the software.

 

[spengo]

First off good luck getting your bank to notarize a trust they didnt draft.Banks are weird about trusts sometimes and most wont notarize a trust their legal dept didnt put together.

Must be a YMMV sort of thing, I did not have an issue with my credit union. I used a trust I printed out from quicken will maker.

 

[Bushman]

I'm a fan, except for the part where you list everything you own and send a copy of it to the ATF...

 

[PDXSparky]

I'm a fan, except for the part where you list everything you own and send a copy of it to the ATF...

You should only list your NFA items and there is no reason that should bother you. BATFE already knows what you own.

 

[justinsyndicate]

xlnt

 

[wired]

I'd MUCH rather have the NFA branch only knowing what I own instead of the local sheriff. I dont care if my local sheriff would sign my Form 4 no questions asked whatsoever. I'd still go trust before going conventional. I don't want my local sheriff to even know I exist.

 

[LimPShoT]

You should only list your NFA items and there is no reason that should bother you. BATFE already knows what you own.

So I have heard both sides to this send in your full trust with list of items and your list of beneficiaries and some are saying it is not necessary? So what does one doe send it all? Or send copy of trust in without said list of items in trust and beneficiaries?

 

[wired]

If you send them just the declaration of trust they will kick it back. They want the whole trust You need to send the entire trust including the schedule A. When you get it back you add the item they just approved for the trust. Ive heard people say that you need to add the item before you send it to them but that makes no sense. It doesnt actually belong to the trust until the ATF approves its transfer so how could the trust own it.

Ive had them kicked back for not including the schedule A.

 

[LimPShoT]

Great thanks for the response, i will send it all in.

 

[Abiqua]

If you send them just the declaration of trust they will kick it back. They want the whole trust You need to send the entire trust including the schedule A. When you get it back you add the item they just approved for the trust. Ive heard people say that you need to add the item before you send it to them but that makes no sense. It doesnt actually belong to the trust until the ATF approves its transfer so how could the trust own it.

Ive had them kicked back for not including the schedule A.

While I always add the item to the sched A after receiving the stamp, I've seen a number of people reporting that they add it before sending it in and there's no problem. I agree that it only makes sense to add it after approval but it doesn't appear the ATF cares.

 

[308]

If you send them just the declaration of trust they will kick it back. They want the whole trust You need to send the entire trust including the schedule A.

Let's be clear on this.
You need to send (1) copy of the Certification of Trust and (1) copy of the Declaration of Trust.
You can set up a trust for ONLY NFA ITEMS if you like, so be creative with the Schedule A description
My Schedule A says: NFA Items: Firearms & Devices Registered with the BATFE

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I didn't read the thread but did not BATF recently come out with a ruling that LE checkoff is no longer required?

I heard that this ruling means trusts are no longer needed?

 

[LimPShoT]

I didn't read the thread but did not BATF recently come out with a ruling that LE checkoff is no longer required?

I heard that this ruling means trusts are no longer needed?

No, from what i understood that le signoff might go away but if using trust you would need to add fingerprint cards and pictures of trustee's. I need further clarification on this, but as it stands right now either trust, llc or le signoff is needed for NFA.

 

[LimPShoT]

Yes, that is correct. I am going to add my item saying "Pending approval" to schedule A.

 

[PDXSparky]

While I always add the item to the sched A after receiving the stamp, I've seen a number of people reporting that they add it before sending it in and there's no problem. I agree that it only makes sense to add it after approval but it doesn't appear the ATF cares.

You have done it correctly for NFA items. Your Trust does not officially own the NFA item until the the stamp comes back, so you do not add it to the Schedule A until after you get the stamp.

Additionally, if you are going to SBR a firearm, the trust needs to own it first. That means the item would need to be on the Schedule A before you send in for the stamp.

Yes, that is correct. I am going to add my item saying "Pending approval" to schedule A.

I wouldn't do that. If this is your first time submitting for a NFA toy, then the only thing that should be on your Schedule A would be whatever you used to initially funded the trust with. Most people use $. They record the serial number on the Schedule A.

 

[dbrislawn]

I am not a bloodsucking lawyer, but I am an attorney and a gun law attorney at that. Of course you can set up your own trust... I have been writing trusts for 25 years, and for 44 months gun trusts.

ATF provided an attorney to teach with me to the Virginia Bar association in November. We have worked together on gun trusts and NFA firearms for the last couple of years. ATF is very concerned about the trusts they see... and the unknowing criminal exposure they fear that law-abiding citizens may very well face as gun control laws perhaps get stricter.

Why?

Because even a professionally drafted conventional trust does NOT mention the Gun Control Act, National Firearms Act, or State firearms laws. Most well-written trusts contain instructions appropriate to stock certificates and real estate... but possessing or transferring stock or land incorrectly does not expose a person to criminal prosecution. Improper possession or transfer of an NFA firearm exposes both sides of the transaction to 10 years in prison, $250,000 to $500,000 per count as a penalty.

This is America and you can decide for yourself where value lies. "Free" legal advice such as that offered above fails to even acknowledge that there is more to all this than printing out some forms. Attorneys like me will be here to help if it goes bad in your case... it will cost far more than doing things more surgically up front and the outcome may never be as good.

 

[wired]

No, from what i understood that le signoff might go away but if using trust you would need to add fingerprint cards and pictures of trustee's. I need further clarification on this, but as it stands right now either trust, llc or le signoff is needed for NFA.

Nothing has changed and until they get a Director nothing will. Congress isn't going to play ball with Obama on an ATF director so it could be years before anything happens . In NFA speak that means it likely will never change.

As far as home made invalid trusts go I heard the ATF turned down a Form 4 because someone named himself trustee and beneficiary and even had the gall to send him a letter asking him to redo his trust before they would approve it. The sheer audacity. Other than that they just about approve anything that meets everything on their checklist. Their game, Their rules. If I want a real trust that will ensure that my stuff goes where I want after I die I will go to a lawyer. That would be if I gave a rats butt what happens to my stuff after I die. If I want one that the ATF will let me buy a machine gun with I'll do it myself thank you very much. If I know my relatives they'll be grabbing everything out of the safe before I'm cold and even the papered stuff will cease to be legally papered once I'm in the ground anyway.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

No, from what i understood that le signoff might go away but if using trust you would need to add fingerprint cards and pictures of trustee's. I need further clarification on this, but as it stands right now either trust, llc or le signoff is needed for NFA.

So it's in limbo for now is what you are saying..