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How to get Curio & Relic FFL

Discussion in 'Curio & Relic Discussion' started by netcarrier, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. netcarrier

    netcarrier Portland, Oregon Active Member

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    Just checking into getting a Curio & Relic FFL How much is it? And do you have to go to ATF office to get one? Can you full out the Paperwork and send the money by CC?
    Do they come over for a look see of you Operation? Any Help would be great.
    Thank you,
    Tony
    Portland, Oregon
    netcarrier@yahoo.com
    :)
     
  2. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    It's not difficult, about $30 for 3 years, just an application to process, one copy goes to the ATF, one copy goes to your local Sheriff. No inspection of your home.

    But in Oregon, having one is essentially worthless now that SB941 is the law of the land. There were no exceptions made for 03 FFL holders, so you would still have to go through an 01 FFL for your purchase or transfer.

    Until someone makes a ruling or a change in Oregon, it's not really worth your time or effort. The folks in Salem effectively killed the 03 FFL in Oregon, and the feds defer to the state laws for this one.

    Thank our lovely reps and senators in Salem for that one.
     
    WAYNO likes this.
  3. netcarrier

    netcarrier Portland, Oregon Active Member

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    Thanks for the information etrain16. But if I went over to Washington I would still have to go thru a 01 FFL? I was thinking that you could buy gun from out of state? So you mean I could by the gun in Washington, but would have to have it sent to an Oregon FFL for pick up anyway?
    :confused:
     
  4. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    SB941 does stop an 03 FFL from buying a C&R from an in state non-dealer (another 03 FFL or unlicensed person). An 03 FFL could still buy a C&R firearm from an in-state dealer without going through the background check and 4473. But a dealer doesn't have to sell that way if they don't want to.

    An 03 FFL isn't worthless in Oregon. An 03 FFL was intended to make interstate transfers of C&R firearms easier. Even before SB941 the 03 FFL was of little value for in-state transfers. There was no exception for an 03 at a gun show, so even an 03 holder buying from a non-dealer at a gun show would require a background check. It's just that prior to SB941 there was no requirement for non-dealers to do any background check at all, so the 03 FFL didn't come into play. Since SB941 the 03 FFL still doesn't come into play for non-dealer C&R transfers.

    If you are buying a C&R firearm with an 03 FFL from out of state while you are outside of Oregon, you'd have to go by that states rules. Don't know if Washington allows C&R transfers from non-dealer to 03 FFL. If you are buying a C&R from out of state (either while your are at the out of state location or via mail order) you should be able to use your 03 FFL whether the seller is a dealer, unlicensed, or had an 03 FFL.

    The main reason behind the 03 FFL was to allow INTERSTATE transfers of C&R firearms. Prior to SB941 in Oregon the bonus to having an 03 FFL for in-state C&R firearms was that you didn't have to pay the OSP fee or fill out a 4473 when buying a C&R firearm from a dealer. Post SB941 there is no exemption for an 03 FFL for in-state transfers, but it should not affect INTERSTATE transfers at all.
     
  5. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    @bolus, one of the members here, has been keeping close tabs on the effect of SB941 on 03 FFL's in Oregon and has been reporting back his findings periodically in this thread: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/sb-941-and-the-c-r-in-oregon.197474/page-5 See one of his most recent updates on Post #81 (11/13/15)

    What it comes down to, at this time, is that if you were to use your 03 FFL for an interstate transfer, say from an online seller in another state, and have it shipped directly to you without going through an 01 FFL for a BGC first, you may be in trouble. According to Bolus' findings, 2 separate BATF agents have told him NOT to use the 03 FFL for interstate transfers in Oregon. And since SB941 effectively requires all sales (with limited exceptions to certain family members, etc.), to go through a BGC and no specific exemption was made for the 03 FFL, it is taking a risk if you use it.

    So, for now, until the State either makes an exemption in the law or provides a judgment/ruling that 03 FFL sales from out of state dealers are exempted from SB941, it is a risk to try and use it for that purpose. And if that is the case, then yes, I still stand by my statement that SB941 effectively renders an 03 FFL in Oregon useless. Maybe that will change, I hope it will change. But I'm not willing to risk it myself. If someone else is, then go for it, and let us know if anything bad comes of it. I got my 03 FFL in 2014 and never got a chance to use it before SB941 passed, so I'm sitting on it and waiting to see what comes down the road.
     
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  6. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    All the language puts the obligation on the transferor to perform the background check. And the only mention of an actual crime being committed is when the transferor fails to comply with the law. No charge listed for the transferee.

    So if an out of state unlicensed person transferred a C&R firearm to an Oregon 03 FFL, they wouldn't be held to Oregon's law as long as they were not in Oregon (or would they?), and they wouldn't be breaking federal law by transferring to a C&R holder. And an out of state dealer transferring a C&R firearm to an Oregon 03 FFL should be fine since SB941 doesn't include a dealer (whether in state or out of state) as a transferor that requires a background check (other than that they have to follow federal law, which doesn't require a dealer to background check an 03)
     
  7. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    It would appear to be as simple as that, but it's not in application. If the law makes it so clear that you can use your 03 FFL for an interstate transfer, from an out of state seller, without a BGC, then why can't the State Police, any legislator or even the BATF issue a plain and simple statement to that effect? My guess is they want it to remain intentionally vague, perhaps in the hopes of catching someone down the road. But so far, 2 BATF field agents have told Bolus "don't use it". Like I said, I'll play it safe until I get a better answer from an authority that could turn this against me.

    Do you have one? Have you used it since SB941? If so, have you had any issues with someone from out of state shipping it directly to you? I'm just curious if it's affected any out of state sellers with respect to Oregon buyers.
     
  8. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Sorry, no data point from me yet. Mine recently expired and I didn't renew so that I can toss my bound book. Will be reapplying early next year.
     
  9. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'm going to remain hopeful that at some point a very clear exemption for 03 FFL's will find its way onto the books. Either that or SB941 goes away.
     
  10. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    The law as written (and the idea of it in general) is terrible. To me, it's clear that an in-state non-dealer to 03 FFL C&R firearm transfer is not legal without going through a dealer. Bur for from a dealer, I wouldn't hesitate to receive a C&R firearm, in or out of state, in person or via mail, once I have my 03 FFL again.

    The gray area to me would be receiving a C&R firearm from an out of state non-dealer while having an 03 FFL in Oregon, if it was shipped to me from out of state. An out of state non-dealer transferring to an 03 FFL while in Oregon would still be a no go. But performing the transfer in the transferor's state (assuming no law there against it), would also be a gray area as far as I can tell.
     
  11. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    2 different ATF agents in Oregon have both told me not to use the C&R for any type of purchase. But they admit the law is so confusing they dont know for sure. They asked the Oregon Attorney general to clarify and as far as I know she wont. She still would not reply to me after 5 months of asking as well. (thus I encourage everyone to vote against her in the 2016 election) Prozanski told me directly that it was his plan to ruin the C&R and that's probably why that they never added specific language to the bill even after I asked them to multiple times before the bill was law. OSP has no clue and they are refusing to answer either. Probably about 1/2 the officers at the Oregon State Police I've talked to have no clue was a C&R FFL is. So dont expect them to be on your side when interpreting the law. I had some hope contacting Betsy Johnson who was going to ask the Legislative Counsel, but not almost a month later no response. 2 separate attorneys specializing in firearm law advised to not use the C&R

    It all comes down to what some Judge or Jury would have to decide if a charge is made against you because you obtained a firearm in oregon without a background check and you are not a dealer as per 941. I bet I could buy C&R firearms for years without the police ever showing up. but none of the C&R guns I would want are not worth the risk to me personally at this point so I wont be getting any more. If I really wanted a collector gun, I'd buy it through a FFL with a background check. That's how I've decided to interpret 941 and the C&R.
     
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  12. telero

    telero Salem area, Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Well bubblegum. Looks like the laws are more convoluted and just worse than I thought. The stuff I said above about dealers being able to transfer C&R firearms to 03 FFLs without a background check is just wrong. Federally it would be fine, but Oregon apparently came along with some stupid additional rules. Not sure how long ORS 166.412 and 166.434 have been around, but I hadn't really seen them or realized what they were until I re-read SB941 again, and not just the parts that had changed. Putting procedure into a statute labeled as definitions seems like shoddy lawcrafting.

    ORS 166.412 made it so a dealer had to do a background check on all handguns that weren't between 2 dealers. So C&R handguns to 03 FFLs were already included in that.

    Then ORS 166.434 modified 166.412 to include all firearms, not just handguns. So then C&R rifles were also included.

    What I really hate is why didn't they just modify the original statute rather than make a new one that modifies the other. It's almost like they want it to be so convoluted that you never really know if you're doing something wrong or not. OK, tinfoil hat rant over.

    So in Oregon, intrastate it is clear that C&R is worthless. Interstate is still gray, but probably not worth trying without actual clarification from someone or some agency who apparently doesn't want to clarify it.
     
  13. python287

    python287 Neskowin,OR Active Member

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    OK how about orders to CMP (Civilian Marksmanship program ) they are selling M-1 Carbines starting Feb 1, 2016 - and they don't appear to have any requirement in their instructions to ship to a Licensed Dealer in Oregon - they do list other States - CT,NJ,NY, and WA !
     
  14. bolus

    bolus Portland Gold Supporter Gold Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    CMP does your background check from what I understand and the law that establishes the CMP is exempt from normal FFL requirements. I would not have a problem ordering from them since they do a background check and you could easily argue that this is a good enough background check for Prozanski
     
  15. kilimanjaro

    kilimanjaro Skagit County Well-Known Member

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    The FFL03 is still useful in Oregon, and Washington. We seem to be in the same boat about door-to-door shipping, at least I'm not willing to be the test case for it here. You do get discounts on stuff from Brownell's and other suppliers, and online orders will fill easier if you have uploaded a scan of your signed FFL to them.

    You'll take delivery at an FFL01, just like any other non-C&R firearm. I'm not bothered one bit by a transfer and record of a C&R sale, let them waste their time and effort on collectors buying 50-year-old and older guns that don't show up in crime statistics anywhere. Bunch of idiots, aren't they?

    Your FFL03 is useful when traveling out of state. You can purchase a gun, provided you are legal in your home state to do so, and present a signed copy of the FFL03 to the vendor. They are supposed to append the firearm data and NICS check number on the FFL03 copy and file it in lieu of the 4473 form. Some vendors don't get this and still do the 4473, c'est la vie.

    I've found the FFL03 very useful at estate sales, sometimes the heirs have guns they want to sell and for some reason a handgun permit is distasteful to them, a generational thing, I guess. Having a Federal Collectors License with all that US Government stuff on it kind of puts them at their ease, some deals can be made in that regard. Once when buying a multiple item lot, they wanted a NICS check anyway, I called up an FFL01 who I deal with, we took one rifle over to his place and ran the check, I paid the transfer fee, and WA sales tax, with the family member right there to witness it. Then we came back to their house and I bought the remainder, as well.
     
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