How the Nazis Used Gun Control - NEVER AGAIN !

[fd15k]

Time for this one again:

Found some numbers on wikipedia actually.

During the initial reports of events that would later be called Kristallnacht on November 9 and 10, 1938, the Police President of Berlin had announced that police activity in the preceding few weeks had disarmed the entire Jewish population of Berlin by confiscating 2,569 of their hand weapons, 1,702 firearms and 20,000 rounds of ammunition.[19][20]

I'm pretty sure an average member of this board (including myself) has at least 20 thousand rounds of ammunition at home. But is the number 1,702 significant ? Let's see...

Berlin had population of 4,338,756 in 1939. And then there is this :

The largest Jewish population center was in Berlin <http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005450> (about 160,000 in 1925), representing less than 4 percent of the city's entire population. Other large Jewish population centers included Frankfurt am Main (about 26,000), Breslau (about 20,000), Hamburg (about 17,000), Cologne (about 15,000), Hannover (about 13,000), and Leipzig (about 12,000). Nevertheless, in 1933 one in five German Jews still lived in small towns.

I couldn't easily find the number for jewish population in Berlin for late 30's, but I would expect it to be over a hundred thousand (I will gladly accept a different number if somebody finds it). So 100K+ jews had 1700 firearms... I have a hard time thinking it would make a great difference for their ability to defend themselves against the Nazis.

 

[MikeE]

The Nazi regime is the liberal fantasy.....complete and absolute power to crush your opposition, 100% gun control, no means for anyone to raise up and oppose tyranny.

These kinds of threads bring to light those who would fight against tyranny and those who would go all brownshirt on us.

You need to learn some history. The Nazi regime crushed all German liberals,sending them to Dachau concentration camp, then went on to crush liberals across Europe. Nothing pisses me off more than this kind of displaced revision of history because much of my mother's family and many of my father's relatives were wiped out in Belgium, Holland, and Italy at the hands of Nazis and Italian Fascists. Some were Jewish, some were Catholic, some non religious, all were liberals in that they believed in freedom of speech, right to assembly, right to vote, worship. They were humble people, not rich, but with a tradition of civic engagement. They did not own firearms, as most European did not, but several were partisans and members of the resistance. Some of them were educated, some barely, but all had an interest in historical truth and hated propagandists of all stripes.
Equating Nazis with liberals is a propaganda trick that makes Gobels ghost smile down in hell.
Most American liberals are dead wrong about gun control. That doesn't make them Nazis, just wrong on the issue.

 

[U201491]

You need to learn some history. The Nazi regime crushed all German liberals,sending them to Dachau concentration camp, then went on to crush liberals across Europe. Nothing pisses me off more than this kind of displaced revision of history because much of my mother's family and many of my father's relatives were wiped out in Belgium, Holland, and Italy at the hands of Nazis and Italian Fascists. Some were Jewish, some were Catholic, some non religious, all were liberals in that they believed in freedom of speech, right to assembly, right to vote, worship. They were humble people, not rich, but with a tradition of civic engagement. They did not own firearms, as most European did not, but several were partisans and members of the resistance. Some of them were educated, some barely, but all had an interest in historical truth and hated propagandists of all stripes.
Equating Nazis with liberals is a propaganda trick that makes Gobels ghost smile down in hell.
Most American liberals are dead wrong about gun control. That doesn't make them Nazis, just wrong on the issue.

Their Liberals were as our conservatives. Definitions have done 180's !
Word games !

 

[U201491]

The true way to bring peace to the world and end the reign of all tyrants.
Arm every citizen in every nation.
Tyranny and dictatorships would end in 6 months and so would crime.

 

[fd15k]

The true way to bring peace to the world and the reign of all tyrants.
Arm every citizen in every nation.
Tyranny and dictatorships would end in 6 months and so would crime.

I am pretty sure a lot of Somalians are armed. Not quite working out for them...

 

[Partsproduction]

Mike the roles have reversed, but the notion of power greedy stateists demanding absolute power and hating any opposition sounds an awful lot like the present administration. Both conservatives and liberals from way back are shocked by the blatant self serving actions of the Obama administration. Whether we are talking about Nixon or Obama the snapshot is the same, the end justifies the means type government.

In any case where one group demands total control of the whole country those who have access to firearms are considered the enemy. "Liberal" and "Conservative" have no meaning when talking about totalitarians.

 

[simon99]

You need to learn some history. The Nazi regime crushed all German liberals,sending them to Dachau concentration camp, then went on to crush liberals across Europe. Nothing pisses me off more than this kind of displaced revision of history because much of my mother's family and many of my father's relatives were wiped out in Belgium, Holland, and Italy at the hands of Nazis and Italian Fascists. Some were Jewish, some were Catholic, some non religious, all were liberals in that they believed in freedom of speech, right to assembly, right to vote, worship. They were humble people, not rich, but with a tradition of civic engagement. They did not own firearms, as most European did not, but several were partisans and members of the resistance. Some of them were educated, some barely, but all had an interest in historical truth and hated propagandists of all stripes.
Equating Nazis with liberals is a propaganda trick that makes Gobels ghost smile down in hell.
Most American liberals are dead wrong about gun control. That doesn't make them Nazis, just wrong on the issue.

Mike,
You're not the only one who had family members die at the hand of Nazis. My post did not say " Liberals ARE Nazis".....what I said was " The Nazi regime is a liberal fantasy"
.....

I thank you, but I know and understand history quite well.

 

[U201491]

Mike,
You're not the only one who had family members die at the hand of Nazis. My post did not say " Liberals ARE Nazis".....what I said was " The Nazi regime is a liberal fantasy"
.....

I thank you, but I know and understand history quite well.

Many of my family came from Germany and Russia.
It is why we value what the US is or is supposed to be.
True freedom is a treasure to preserve at any and all cost.
It is why anger swells across this country today.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I'm pretty sure an average member of this board (including myself) has at least 20 thousand rounds of ammunition at home. But is the number 1,702 significant ? Let's see...

Berlin had population of 4,338,756 in 1939. And then there is this :

I couldn't easily find the number for jewish population in Berlin for late 30's, but I would expect it to be over a hundred thousand (I will gladly accept a different number if somebody finds it). So 100K+ jews had 1700 firearms... I have a hard time thinking it would make a great difference for their ability to defend themselves against the Nazis.

Firstly, the Jews of Berlin weren't the only ones disarmed by the Nazis, and the confiscation went well beyond Kristallnacht.
Secondly, the poster I posted depicts the likely scenario once confiscation has been accomplished.

You need to read more Solzhenitsyn, and his musings on what just a little more resistance in the face of the goons of Lenin, Trotsky etc. would/could have done for those who later realized what they had given up.
The same can be said of the subjugation of the Jews.
The difference being, that Hitler managed to turn the vast majority of Germans against the Jews, by blaming them for the woes inflicted on them financially under the guise of reparations for WWI.
As if all Jews had a banker in the family.

If every one of those 1700 firearms had been used to acquire 2 more from the corpses of their oppressors, and that trend continued, the balance of power would have shifted exponentially in a matter of days.
That is the foundation of the Israeli's, philosophy on guns and an armed populace.

The reality is, it doesn't take a lot of resistance for the true motives and brutality of tyrants to be exposed for what it truly is.
Once it does, and the people realize what is truly at stake, and how thoroughly they will be subjugated, and their wishes and ideals suppressed, the more they tend to resist.

That is one reason why the power of the press, and freedom to communicate, and mass communications MUST be preserved, along with the RTKBA.

The most insidious thing the current admin is doing, is turning the media/press into their lapdog.
They will use the press like a velvet glove to conceal their iron fist, if they can.

If the time ever comes that armed resistance is necessary, the people will need to be shown the extent to which those in power are willing to (literally) kill off dissent.

For myself, I'll remain one of the "bitter clingers" thanks.
The battle for retention of our liberties will be defined by the number of people willing to die to preserve them, as much as the number of weapons wielded.
It has been forever thus, regardless of society, government, weapons of the era, or cuture.
In Japan it was the sword. In England the longbow. In 1776 America, it was the musket.
And even though few were successful, all were backed with the blood of patriots opposed to subjugation and oppression.

 

[MikeE]

Mike,
You're not the only one who had family members die at the hand of Nazis. My post did not say " Liberals ARE Nazis".....what I said was " The Nazi regime is a liberal fantasy"
.....

I thank you, but I know and understand history quite well.

No, the Nazi regime is NOT a liberal fantasy. Which is why , for example, Al Gore didn't keep contesting the election of 2000 after the Supreme Court decision, despite a high likelihood that he won Florida. Liberals, whatever their many shortcomings are, tend to believe in some kind of rule of law. Do they, and all other political tendencies, bend the rule of law? Yes, sometimes alot. But they don't send around squadristi to beat their opponents into the ground. That's the Fascist (and Stalinist) MO. Mixing these distinctions is disrespecting our ancestors.

 

[Brutus57]

Bill Ayers, liberal....believes in rule of law....ha..haha.haha. The only rule of law they believe in is the rule of law, or better yet, their interpretation of the law after they are in charge. If the current administration believed in All the laws like he was elected to do then there'd be immigration enforcement, etc.

Brutus out

 

[MikeE]

Bill Ayers, liberal....believes in rule of law....ha..haha.haha. The only rule of law they believe in is the rule of law, or better yet, their interpretation of the law after they are in charge. If the current administration believed in All the laws like he was elected to do then there'd be immigration enforcement, etc.

Brutus out

Maybe you should take that up with Bill Ayers...

 

[Certaindeaf]

Live by the sword, die by the sword. At least there's a bungload a dead Nazi's.. may beelzebub continue to torment their scurvy souls for eternity.

 

[fd15k]

Firstly, the Jews of Berlin weren't the only ones disarmed by the Nazis, and the confiscation went well beyond Kristallnacht.

I was asking for numbers on rate of gun ownership from some other posters, and nobody was willing to find any. I would be very interested to learn what was the gun ownership like in Nazi Germany prior to confiscations. Perhaps confiscations went on for other groups, but according to that data I've posted jewish community of Berlin was completely disarmed at that point. Jews are brought up in the context of Nazi disarmament, so my findings and statements are narrow.

Secondly, the poster I posted depicts the likely scenario once confiscation has been accomplished.

Well, how much do you know about partisan movements all around Eastern Europe ? Those guys were often very well armed, but their fate once captured (which is what depicted in the picture posted - treatment of prisoners) was the same. Here are some pics for you :

You need to read more Solzhenitsyn, and his musings on what just a little more resistance in the face of the goons of Lenin, Trotsky etc. would/could have done for those who later realized what they had given up.

This is called Russian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same can be said of the subjugation of the Jews.
The difference being, that Hitler managed to turn the vast majority of Germans against the Jews, by blaming them for the woes inflicted on them financially under the guise of reparations for WWI.
As if all Jews had a banker in the family.

That is exactly my point. It was a typical tyranny of majority against a minority. Hitler's ideas were welcome by the people, that's why it happened. Jewish population in 30's was around 500,000, while the entire population of Germany was about 66 millions and was already militarized. Jews stood no chance.

If every one of those 1700 firearms had been used to acquire 2 more from the corpses of their oppressors, and that trend continued, the balance of power would have shifted exponentially in a matter of days.

That's a belief that you have. I have an opposite belief

That is the foundation of the Israeli's, philosophy on guns and an armed populace.

There some pictures circulating with supposedly armed teachers in Israel and stuff like that. Luckily I know some people in Israel (some are even on this board) who shed plenty of light on the real policies concerning gun ownership in Israel.

 

[U201491]

What If Jewish Citizens Were Armed In Nazi Germany? Holocaust or no? WWII or no?

<broken link removed>



In 1928, five years before the rise of Hitler, Germany’s freely elected government enacted a “Law on Firearms and Ammunition.” This law required anyone who owned a firearm, or who wanted to own a firearm, to make themselves known to the authorities. Anyone who wanted to purchase a firearm had to get a “Firearms Acquisition Permit.” If you needed ammunition, you had to get an “Ammunition Acquisition Permit.” When you wanted to go hunting, you had to get an “Annual Hunting Permit.” Every firearm that changed hands professionally had to have a serial number and the maker’s or dealers name stamped into the metal. “Proof of need” was made a condition for issuance of all licenses, not just the carry permit. Mandatory prison sentences were imposed on anyone who professionally sold or transferred a firearm or ammunition without a license. Truncheons and stabbing weapons were subject to the same licensing requirements as firearms, in terms of their manufacture and sale.

As a result of the 1928 Law, all firearms and firearms owners were registered. To take firearms from anyone they distrusted, the Nazis simply did not renew permits. Under the law, their privately created law, the Nazis could now easily confiscate all firearms and ammunition from any, or all, selected groups. The gun law of 1928 had served the Nazis well. It made almost all law abiding firearms owners known to the authorities. The 1928 law on firearms and ammunition helped the Nazis to destroy democracy in Germany, by disarming the law abiding majority, whom they feared.

By the end of 1931, a rising tide of violence, mainly between Nazi and Communist street fighters, moved the authorities to tighten restrictions. Under new regulations, the police could order everyone’s firearms and ammunition … even items not normally used as weapons … to be put into police custody,

“If the maintenance of public security and order require it.”



Simply put, this is what happens when you have a big government trying to control whether or not people can/will bear arms to protect themselves. If you try to control the individual rather than empower him, it will ultimately lead to pure totalitarianism.

What would have happened if good Jewish men were armed when the Nazis came to their home and tried to take them away. Would they have fought? Of course they would have!

You would have had an armed militia that would have had a chance. We saw something of the effect at the Warsaw uprising. Unfortunately that was one of the worst slaughters during the holocaust, but also one of the largest rebellions against the Gestapo and the N.K.V.D.



In April 1943 the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto revolted. Despite their valiant and desperate fight, the rebellion was brutally suppressed. The ghetto was smashed; 36,000 people were either killed or sent to death camps.

As Davies explains, the Warsaw uprising of 1944 – which should not be confused with the ghetto uprising – ended just as tragically. After Hitler commanded the SS chief Heinrich Himmler to take charge of operations in the city, orders were issued to put down the rebellion and reduce the Polish capital to ruins: ”We shall finish them off,” Himmler declared. ”Warsaw will be liquidated.” Every inhabitant was to be killed, every house burned. By October the rebellion had been crushed. Fifteen thousand of the partisans had been killed, and between 200,000 and 250,000 civilians lay dead.



An effort that was horrifying and terrible, but also heroic and brave at the same time. Imagine if more people carried arms. How many lives would have been saved? If their society, five years previous, had not enacted laws controlling the sale and use of guns throughout it’s society, how would it have affected the entire war? Were these laws intentionally made as a precursor to the rise of the Nazi regime?

There may have been a dramatic difference in events that occured during the length of World War 2, simply because Jews were armed and could protect themselves and their families if they had to. In fact, there may have never even been a second “World War”, because it may have been contained solely to Germany. Had the anti-Nazi citizens been armed, instead of being disarmed over the course of several years, it more than likely would have led to a massive civil war which would have crippled any emerging victor’s ability to wage war on the scale that Nazi Germany did during World War II. If these citizens had not been disarmed… there may have never even been a war or Holocaust at all. At least in the case of the Warsaw uprising they didn’t go down without a fight…

 

[U201491]

NAZI FIREARMS LAW AND THE DISARMING OF THE GERMAN JEWS

http://jpfo.org/pdf03/article-nazilaw.pdf

17 Arizona Journal of International and Comparative Law, No. 3, 483-535 (2000)
Stephen P. Halbrook*
We are in danger of forgetting that the Bill of Rights reflects
experience with police excesses. It is not only under Nazi rule that
police excesses are inimical to freedom. It is easy to make light of
insistence on scrupulous regard for the safeguards of civil liberties
when invoked on behalf of the unworthy. It is too easy. History
bears testimony that by such disregard are the rights of liberty
extinguished, heedlessly at first, then stealthily, and brazenly in the
end.
Justice Felix Frankfurter1
The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow
the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all
conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms
have prepared their own downfall by so doing.
Adolph Hitler2

 

[U201491]

The 1938 German Weapons Act

Gun politics in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 1938 German Weapons Act, the precursor of the current weapons law, superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "...persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit." But under the new law:

Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as was the possession of ammunition."[4]
The legal age at which guns could be purchased was lowered from 20 to 18.[5]
Permits were valid for three years, rather than one year.[5]
The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.[4]
Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition.[4]

Under both the 1928 and 1938 acts, gun manufacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers. These records were to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

On November 11, 1938, the Minister of the Interior, Wilhelm Frick, promulgated Regulations Against Jews' Possession of Weapons. This regulation effectively deprived all Jews living in those locations of the right to possess firearms or other weapons.[6][7]

 

[U201491]

Jews and guns | Dennis Prager | Jewish Journal


How many Jews the Nazis would have murdered if most European Jews had guns is impossible to know. But common sense suggests that the number would have been much lower. The Warsaw Ghetto revolt was begun with 10 old pistols and very little ammunition. Later a few hundred pistols and rifles and a few machine guns were smuggled into the ghetto. Himmler told Hitler he would quell the revolt in three days. It took four weeks. Many hundreds of German troops — perhaps a thousand — were killed or wounded.

If the Nazis knew that Jews refused to go to roundup areas and that many Jews were armed, awaiting Nazis to enter every apartment, it is difficult to imagine that the Nazi genocidal machinery would have been nearly as effective. And, vitally important, even had the number of Jews murdered been near 6 million (which I doubt), not all ways of dying are equal. There is a world of difference between being gassed or shot to death while standing naked beside the mass grave you were forced to dig and getting killed while shooting a Nazi.

The first thing every totalitarian regime does is confiscate weapons. As long as evil people have guns, good people will need to have them. This is true for nations (which is why it is so important for America and for the world that America have the strongest military) and it is true for individuals.

 

[U201491]

You might wish to view these.


http://www.northwestfirearms.com/showthread.php?t=156220

 

[Burt Gummer]

New World Order for Dummies | Intellihub News