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How much training should one have?

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by twoclones, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. twoclones

    twoclones Tri-Cities, WA Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever wondered if you needed more training or practice? Think you can perform well during the adrenaline rush brought on by a gun fight? I just want to share this story told by a retired cop during my recent personal protection instructor class...

    As accurately as I can quote him:
    "I had to investigate a case where 2 cops had a shoot-out with a guy in a phone booth. They were within 7 feet of each other, all 3 men emptied their magazines and no one was hurt."

    Wow! If only there were some way to train for the adrenaline.
     
    lowly monk and (deleted member) like this.
  2. MA Duce

    MA Duce Central Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Hard to imagine. Everyone is different and no two situations are alike. The first gunfight I was in consisted of one shot. I was crawling across stacked bales of jute in the hold of a sampan with about two feet of headroom when a head popped up in a hollowed out area of the cargo and I saw the front end of an AK 47 coming up. I had a .45 in one hand and a flashlight in the other. To this day I do not remember crawling back to the hatch, but I do remember shaking for about ten minutes after. The amount of training you should have is, in my opinion, exactly as much as you can afford. I think the years of skeet shooting with my Dad prior to that day saved my life. I looked at the movement and shot where I was looking. Train as if your life depends on it..... because it does.
     
  3. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    For the average person today, the most important training they need is on the Law. Carrying a firearm and being able to respond to a threat is one thing but being able to avoid prosecution afterwards is a bigger challenge.

    As for the physical training, it's going to depend on your actual needs. If you are a Police Officer, Armed Security Guard, or just like to hang out in real dangerous places, you will no doubt need a different level of training than if you just go to the Store or ATM.

    Back to my first statement, way too many people are fairly proficient with their firearms but don't truly understand when they can employ them. Self Defense or defense of another is still the only legitimate reason for shooting someone. Not because they're stealing your lawnmower or stereo out of your car.

    Before spending a lot of money on those "Tactical Commando" classes, a good class on the Law pertaining to carrying and using a firearm would be a great investment.

    That said, I try to get in some range time with the two pistols I carry regularly. Not just marksmanship but failure drills as well.
     
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  4. Norm0931

    Norm0931 Hillsboro, OR Sgt. Sheep Silver Vendor 2016 Volunteer

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    You should have as much training as is affordable to you. As long as you have the time and/or the money to afford training you should do it.
     
  5. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    As much as you can afford. Period.

    At the very least repeated training pounds things into your brain.
     
  6. Hook686

    Hook686 Northern California Active Member

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    Four years in the Marine Corps with the FMF.
     
  7. Asp

    Asp Oregon, the promise land. Active Member

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    You sum it up well and it works for spiritual issues also.
    Never stop training. If you can still hold a weapon, you can still train.
    Find a buddy, go to the range.
     
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  8. uptownsouldier253

    uptownsouldier253 Kent, WA Member

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    I'm somebody who constantly thinks scenarios through my head and what i would do, but since i don't practice those situations at the range or train i'm afraid i won't have anything to "fall back on" in hectic situations like that. i would definitely take nonstop training if i had the cash and time. You definitely want as much upper hand as possible in anything you do, especially if it's something that could save your life

    I think it'd be an awesome idea for local shootouts. we could get some training sessions going, real life scenarios, clearing houses or whatever, things that we deal with everyday. it's training that we could definitely need one day
     
  9. lowly monk

    lowly monk Beaverton, Oregon. Just a guy. Bronze Supporter

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    Practice every day, Be thoughtful. Your body will use what you train. I just hope mine will.
    Be well.
     
  10. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I was thinking. FOF might be the best way to get the adrenaline dump plus work on weapon skills in as close to time as life scenarios.

    I agree with everyone's thoughts so far. I know this might be controversial but I am of the opinion that the standards for concealed carry at least in Oregon are ridiculously low. My wife has the bare minimum to carry and she isn't even close to being in the mindset or having the skills to use a gun in a carry situation. I have LOTS more training and I feel I am just on the verge of being competent. YMMV.
     
  11. Keys1971

    Keys1971 Oregon City Active Member

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    And my favorite quote " practice does not make you perfect, perfect practice makes you perfect". Train right, train hard, and train often.
     
  12. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I'll take quality over quantity. Its the quality of the training and what you do after the class, that will influence your response/action.

    If all one does is go to classes, hang the paper certificate(s) on the wall, and do nothing to enforce that training into their practice regimen...than its all for naught, and you just wasted your money.

    The last few years the firearm world has exploded with guns, gear, and instructors...beware of those selling their snake oil hocus-pocus shooting technique(s).
    Having a class with a high round count, leaves a lot for blasting and little for training enforcement.
     
  13. deadshot2

    deadshot2 NW Quadrant WA State Well-Known Member

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    This statement reminds me of just about every Auto Repair Shop I've ever been in. All those certificates. Makes one wonder how much time they have left over to work on cars;)
     
  14. Caleqs

    Caleqs Eugene, OR Member

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    The amount of training you take should match your environment. Basic proficiency is the minimum - draw, point and shoot what you're pointing at. Being able to do that under extreme duress is a matter of practicing well REGULARLY. Force-on-force is the only way I know to help improve your chances of dealing with the stress of physical harm. Its true in the martial arts world and its true in the gun world (they're the same, btw, but whatever). Anyone who trains in martial arts, but never puts on the gear and spars is deluded in their thinking of being prepared to fight. Same is true with F-o-F and gun fighting. F-o-F is also a great test bed for tactics and techniques that you may think would work under stress, but end up not working under stress (resulting either in the need for further training to ingrain it, or abandoning the tactic/technique).

    In my opinion, for someone who's already proficient, ongoing training should have, at a minimum, the following: 2 formal training courses with qualified instructors per year. One half-day session at the range each month. Drawing, dry firing and manipulation drills for a few mins each week.

    I know from the martial arts world, after 20+ years of training, I need to train at least once a week to maintain anything and really more like 2 times a week. I also know that to make any rapid improvement in learning MA, it takes a minimum of 3 times a week, preferably 4. Same should hold true with gun fighting. If you need to improve, you'll have to train more. If you're looking to maintain, you can train less. Where you want to draw that line is up to you.

    I know when I first started training martial arts, I would get hit and immediately stop fighting. It took time and effort to learn to get hit harder and harder and to fight through it. I finally went to an MMA gym to train just so I could get hit more. Sure enough, with a stable of professional fighters there, I got hit a lot...and HARD. It definitely made getting hit something I could deal with more and more easily the more it happened and the harder it happened. So I learned not only to fight better, but I learned how to respond to getting hit hard. Same will hold true in gun fighting. The more stress you can put yourself under in training, the better you're going to deal with the stress when it really happens. Only way I know how to do that without getting killed is force-on-force and being down range when someone's shooting. The F-o-F helps you get used to being under pressure from an assailant and being shot at gets you used to the sound and experience of having bullets ripping by you without hearing protection <standard warnings and disclaimer inserted here>.

    Good thing training is so much fun! =)
     
  15. Caleqs

    Caleqs Eugene, OR Member

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    I'd even go so far as to say people believe they will rise up to the occasion and fall back on who they THINK they are (super-bad mofo) vs. who they ACTUALLY are (untrained, out-of-shape mofo). I have no problem with folks that don't train, but the ones who don't train and then think they have mad skillz just annoy the heck out of me!
     
  16. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    My daughter is fond of saying "Practice makes permanent." Nobody's perfect, after all.

    I'm not going to be clearing rooms or charging into a crime scene - that's for young people with badges. I'm more than happy to run the other way - and that's what informs my training. I do so regularly, and I don't take it lightly, but those sessions end up being solo trips to the woods because much of it would be forbidden at the ranges I go to. I'm not sure that I want to train with anybody other than my S.O. anyway, since she's the only one I'm likely to face danger with.

    I used to read Fernando Aguirre's blog all the time (SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA), but I think he's really over the top when he insists that everybody needs to burn at least two hundred rounds a month in perpetuity, as if we're all prepping for a zombie apocalypse. Sure, he lives in a rathole of a city, but I don't think it's a given that economic collapse is going to look the same in Portland as it does in Buenos Aires or Juarez.

    There's an "opportunity cost" to your training: It's time you're not spending on something else. There's so much to learn about gardening, animal husbandry, and other sustainability topics, that I can't be spending my time on self-defense to the exclusion of securing my sources of food, water, and shelter. It's not as much fun as shooting, but it broadens and humbles me to struggle with creating my daily bread.
     
  17. linflas

    linflas Salem, OR Member

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    I deal with "adrenaline" on a daily basis in my work environment. I am an ICU nurse, have been in emergency rooms and ICU's for almost 15 years. In the beginning the life and death pucker moments were just a blur, pure reaction, was not able to make critical decisions quickly, just acted on training. Now that I have been exposed to that stress over and over again, my body still reacts in the same way, hightened senses, a "slowing" of time, however my brain acts differently, I can think and make split second judgements and decisions, clearly and with purpose.

    How this would translate to a moment when I would have to defend myself or my wife, I hope I will have the same response, able to think and act quickly. Training for me was key in doing the right things, but I was reacting to things, not being able to anticipate as well. Now I can think through everything, and anticipate, what is coming. Training + experience, I think that is the key.
     
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  18. FMJ 911

    FMJ 911 Snohomish, Washington Active Member

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    I go shooting about once every 2 months, and each time I am limited by funky "Range Rules" or my Dad's ammo conservation extremism. I went to a gravel pit and did some "training" with my Mossberg 12-gauge pump shotgun. and I learned a lot about how to handle a shotgun.

    Would 50 assorted 12-gauge rounds for each 1 hour session, twice a month be enough? I'd also train with a Ruger 10/22 to save on ammo costs, and shoot about 100 rounds over that same hour.

    Sometimes I tend to shoot into the hillside of the gravel pit just to see where my shots "land" and it sure helps with aim, and learning where a certain gun will make it's mark. but I mostly use paper targets to see shot patterns and for sighting in rifles.
     
  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    A friend told me about an article in American Rifleman (or one like that)
    Anyway. It spoke of a shooter being interviewed in prison. He was asked to watch some training videos.Heck he had no where to be that decade,why not?
    Well he started to laugh at them.

    WT heck? they asked
    "You guys don't get it,we don't fight like that.We shoot anything and anyone in our way.We don't worry about 'collateral damage' like you do.That type training won't help you when we start shooting at you"

    Then they asked him to do drills with them.I'm guessing with rubber bullets
    He completely overwhelmed the officer and the rangemaster was pissed.
    Bad guy continued to tell them they just don't play by their rules.Their training won't help them against thugs needing to get away. (sure,sure the numbers will take down some bad guys,but how many LEOs get killed in the process ?)

    With that said,I think training that familiarizes you with your weapon and gets your muscle memory to easily bring your weapon to aim is important
    The 3 gun challenges look to be great for reaction timing and bringing your gun to aiming but I would guess you would need to train and watch videos of bad guys as a job for it to help.
     
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  20. Scott

    Scott Battle Ground Well-Known Member

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    I did a one year intern with criminals for my masters and it is interesting. Police don't even have 3/4's of the training they need. Not just guns but dealing with the public and many different areas.

    Military has so much bettter training and its not just guns either.