How much constitutes hoarding?

[ma96782]

Getting back to hoarding.

IMHO....

A statute should be easy enough to read and understand so that someone with a sixth-grade education could adhere to it. Unfortunately.....that is seldom the case with a lot of statutes.

A line should have been drawn at __X___ number. Then, everyone reading would know/could know exactly when they've crossed the line.

BUT......
Thanks to the legislature (LOL...Rrrrright, most of them are lawyers) that ain't happening. Perhaps the statute was written to guarantee job security for lawyers? Cough, cough.....

Aloha, Mark

 

[ma96782]

Rubber bands and coat hangers have many uses that go far beyond what they were originally developed for, what exactly were bump stocks developed for? What sort of alternate uses are there for bump stocks?

I'm not saying I agree with the bump stock ban but, something designed which has only a single purpose is vastly different when compared to things designed to hold pieces of paper together or hang clothes on that may be assembled into something else.

I suspect that....
The bump stock was built, marketed and sold because the company was trying to make money. AND, probably the bump stock designs were legally cleared by the BATF even before the company proceeded with the project. Nothing wrong with that.....Right? Trying to fulfill a perceived need of some shooters, while making a profit. The company's owners probably even invested their own money and probably took out loans too. Nothing wrong with that....Right?

OK. So things were going along. People were employed. Sales were being made. Profits were being made. And taxes were being paid. Etc....

Then.... A single incident occurred in Las Vegas. And as a result, the law was changed in a perverse way to fit a political agenda. No more bump stocks.

The company went "down the tubes". People lost their jobs and maybe the loans went into default. All thanks to the government's redefining MGs. Is that the way things are supposed to go? Not even mentioning that some people became felons overnight and that the Govt. offered no way to register and the property was effectively worthless as a result.

In my opinion, it's just NOT good public policy.

OK, Ok, ok......stuff happens and things change.

YES, but it still doesn't change the Constitution. It still says, ".....shall not be infringed." Change the constitution if you like.

Oh wait....."interpretation" is the key here. Rrrright..... they've been chipping away at it for the longest time and it has been working. Slowly but surely..... strangling freedom.

Aloha, Mark

 

[OldBroad44]

We NWFAers are merely being appropriately prepared, consistent with our life-long philosophies.

Those guys with one roll of tp more than us are greedy hoarders.

 

[wired]

Rubber bands and coat hangers have many uses that go far beyond what they were originally developed for, what exactly were bump stocks developed for? What sort of alternate uses are there for bump stocks?

I'm not saying I agree with the bump stock ban but, something designed which has only a single purpose is vastly different when compared to things designed to hold pieces of paper together or hang clothes on that may be assembled into something else.

Coat hangers arent an issue. Raw thermoset plastic isnt an issue. Both can be fashioned into a machinegun according to the ATF . Its the act of making them into the machinegun part that is illegal. I'm not making that up. Thats the law according to the ATF. One has a basis in law. The other was just a knee jerk reaction from the head of the administration that has not been tested in court ...yet.

 

[Alexx1401]

Coat hangers arent an issue. Raw thermoset plastic isnt an issue. Both can be fashioned into a machinegun according to the ATF . Its the act of making them into the machinegun part that is illegal. I'm not making that up. Thats the law according to the ATF. One has a basis in law. The other was just a knee jerk reaction from the head of the administration that has not been tested in court ...yet.

If they were ever to prevail in court you know two things would happen almost over night. 1 congress would come up with a new law. 2 ATF would do the same thing they did with the shotguns, wallet holsters, Auto Sears, and how many other things. They would just make a new rule.

 

[Member 5605]

More than you could use in normal service throughout your lifetime. This includes you, your immediate and external family.

1,000,000 respirators is excessive for a household. Should your goods be taken at the barrel of a gun? No.

You paid for it and you used your own money. I don't believe that even during a crisis the seizure of private citizens lawfully owned property should happen without immediate and JUST compensation.

This is a symptom of the problem and the problem is a dependency on foreign production of vital health and safety items.

 

[jdub75]

NY Man Charged with Hoarding and Cough Assault by FBI

This should be not fake news enough for you. They are charging him for hoarding essential supplies, lying the the govt and coughing on the FBI

Eh. Personal use is one thing. This guys was actively trying to sell medical supplies at 700% markup...to a doctor. Thats not capitalism, that's sleazy. Imo he's lucky the feds got to him vs. some street justice types.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Eh. Personal use is one thing. This guys was actively trying to sell medical supplies at 700% markup...to a doctor. Thats not capitalism, that's sleazy. Imo he's lucky the feds got to him vs. some street justice types.

Actually you're wrong , don't confuse your personal belief of right or wrong with business ethics. The owner did nothing at all unethical. He legally purchased those with his own money and then sold them at a profit when there was an increased demand.

What he did is the absolute definition of capitalism in a perfectly legal and ethical manner. One can argue the morality of what he did all day, however this isn't an issue of morality. It is one of property rights . I have a personal belief that we should help ourselves and our loved ones first, then help others after we have taken care of own. However being charitable or civic minded should not be done at the barrel of a gun.

 

[wired]

Eh. Personal use is one thing. This guys was actively trying to sell medical supplies at 700% markup...to a doctor. Thats not capitalism, that's sleazy. Imo he's lucky the feds got to him vs. some street justice types.

Nertz. I just wish I was that guy making a 700% markup. Nice margin there.

My wife has type AB+ blood. Universal plasma donor. If she sells her plasma she'll get $50 a liter. By the time its processed and packaged the company selling it will get $10,000 for her plasma. Fair? Not much in life is.

 

[Stomper]

Here's a universal guideline that most people use to determine if someone is hoarding during an emergency crisis..

If they have what I want, and/or if they have more than me during an emergency crisis.... they're hoarding and must be confronted, and relieved of their stash.

 

[Stomper]

Nertz. I just wish I was that guy making a 700% markup. Nice margin there.

My wife has type AB+ blood. Universal plasma donor. If she sells her plasma she'll get $50 a liter. By the time its processed and packaged the company selling it will get $10,000 for her plasma. Fair? Not much in life is.

My blood type is O-neg, and is "liquid gold" in a mass casualty event if I cared to sell it.... hmmmm.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Let me ask everyone a question. Should we not be exhibiting the same level of consternation with our fellows here who are asking higher than "fair" prices for ammo due to people making a run on ammunition ? hmm after all there may be someone who needs that ammo to defend themselves and they can't buy it cheaply cause others purchased it and are now selling it for more than what is considered by many to be fair..

Let me provide the answer before anyone rings in . No we should not be full of outrage over someone making a buck off their ammo, TP or N95 masks. It's just that simple. If you do not like the price don't buy it ...When enough consumers do that instead of panicking and helping to create a shortage then the price will adjust and the market will correct.

However no one here or anywhere should be condemning those who had the foresight to prepare for unforeseen circumstances for either personal need or for financial gain.

I am going to leave you with a simple bit of truth that my grand father gave me as a child when I spoke of fairness. This the gentlemen I spoke of earlier who lived through the depression and knew something about hard times and shortages of all types.

" Boy the fair is where hogs go to win a ribbon"

 

[Stomper]

" Boy the fair is where hogs go to win a ribbon"

Mic drop!

 

[cookie]

Hoarding is good I don't live out of a store.

 

[jdub75]

Actually you're wrong , don't confuse your personal belief of right or wrong with business ethics. The owner did nothing at all unethical. He legally purchased those with his own money and then sold them at a profit when there was an increased demand.

What he did is the absolute definition of capitalism in a perfectly legal and ethical manner. One can argue the morality of what he did all day, however this isn't an issue of morality. It is one of property rights . I have a personal belief that we should help ourselves and our loved ones first, then help others after we have taken care of own. However being charitable or civic minded should not be done at the barrel of a gun.

But society has deemed what this guy did is indeed illegal. Thats all that binds a society together-the adhering to a certain set of norms, laws, etc. this guy is exhibiting more of a capitalist/libertarian perversion. That winner take all mentality is how America has ended up with one of the worst income gaps in he world for such a 'rich' nation.

 

[wired]

But society has deemed what this guy did is indeed illegal. Thats all that binds a society together-the adhering to a certain set of norms, laws, etc. this guy is exhibiting more of a capitalist/libertarian perversion. That winner take all mentality is how America has ended up with one of the worst income gaps in he world for such a 'rich' nation.

If people want higher income they can stay in school, work hard and get better jobs that pay well. I know plenty of people who have risen from nothingness to hold high six figure salaries and hold prominent positions...myself included. I dont have a lot of sympathy for the dumb or the lazy.

Good on him for being a capitalist/Libertarian pervert.

 

[03A3Sporter]

But society has deemed what this guy did is indeed illegal. Thats all that binds a society together-the adhering to a certain set of norms, laws, etc. this guy is exhibiting more of a capitalist/libertarian perversion. That winner take all mentality is how America has ended up with one of the worst income gaps in he world for such a 'rich' nation.

No Sir we ended up with one of the largest gaps in wealth by legislating and regulating some barriers to entry that stop many people from getting into the game at all. Having said that we have the greatest standard of living in the world at all income levels. That is a fact, in a former life I traveled for my job extensively on a global scale and having traveled every where I can assure that the poor in America are only poor by US standards. When you see real poverty first hand you will never forget it.

The reason we have such a high standard of living is because of capitalism not in spite of it. Competition and incentive is what has made this work.

The American brand of socialism only works because of the massive wealth and economic engine that has created it. And per your comments about you seeing a libertarian perversion in my post, I can see a progressive/socialist one in yours. How about just discussing ideals rather than trying to use saul alinsky tactics and frame me as someone greedy .

It is easy to be charitable with the wealth and resources of others when you are so willing to use the threat of violence to collect from those who have and give to those who do not.

 

[Koda]

The problem here is when someone is profiting off the suffering of others. When that happens society is going to step in.... Its a law of nature not a political debate.
Greed is the downfall of unrestrained capitalism.

 

[DB is Here]

Two and a half minutes of brilliance.

 

[03A3Sporter]

If people want higher income they can stay in school, work hard and get better jobs that pay well. I know plenty of people who have risen from nothingness to hold high six figure salaries and hold prominent positions...myself included. I dont have a lot of sympathy for the dumb or the lazy.

Good on him for being a capitalist/Libertarian pervert.

So much truth here, and as much as many want to deride our society and capitalism. I would like to point out that there is more new wealth being created now than ever before in history. Everyone I know who has become affluent worked very hard to get there and it did not happen over night. I fear that many in our society think people somehow just got rich suddenly out of the blue , or by hook and crook.

Those who gain affluence are usually the smartest among us who saw opportunity where others saw none, and they were willing to put in the work to get where they wanted to be.